I am going to be playing a universalist wizard. I would like to make a scroll with metamagic on it.
If I wanted an empowered (+2) persistent (+2) burning hands spell, would that scroll cost me half of 1125gp, the price of a lvl5 scroll? Or would it be a lvl1 scroll and cost me half of 25gp to make because it is a level 1 spell?
How does this then apply with metamagic mastery? It states it doesn't increase the spell level. So does that mean I could have an empowered, persistent spell and it only be 3CL?
Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).
Seems pretty set to me that it is treated as a 5 level spell in all ways. It’s a little annoying they scrolls weren’t name dropped but no reason to think they would use different rules.
Abilities like metamagic mastery don’t typically work for magic item creation. That ability works for a spell cast. Not for a spell scribed into a scroll.
Thank you for the answer. :)
I agree that that quote speaks to level limits, which the Metamagic mastery also does. I think it specifically mentions this in Mastery because of both item creation and because people would take advantage of a +4CL boosting feat and put it on the max level of spell they can cast. This restriction is there for a good reason and one I need to keep in mind when making scrolls, but I don't think it touches on the effects of the Mastery ability in regards to how it affects cost at all.
It is clear that metamagic does work for item creation, or else it wouldn't mention that in the quote I placed in the second spoiler. Once enchanted, yes, I agree it is a 5CL item (1st level spell + 4 metamagic CL) and I would have to be able to cast 5th level spells to use it (or mimic this), but for cost specifically, I think it would negate the cost of the +2CL from the mastery. I would then be paying half the creation cost for a CL3 scroll.
I think it treats the spell level, which in this case would translate as well to item creation cost, as though the metamagic was not increasing the level (or there at all) when it says, "this does not alter the level of the spell or casting time". A character (not me in this instance) should really be able to take advantage of this by using metamagic master trait.
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For the first question:
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
For the second question, the spell you put into the scroll isn't affected by class abilities in any way unless the class ability says it affects scrolls production.
Your idea goes against the rules in several ways:
1)
If I wanted an empowered (+2) persistent (+2) burning hands spell, would that scroll cost me half of 1125gp, the price of a lvl5 scroll? Or would it be a lvl1 scroll and cost me half of 25gp to make because it is a level 1 spell?
Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast. This does not alter the level of the spell or the casting time.
You can apply only one metamagic with metamagic mastery, the others should be applied normally. You don't get to apply several and then pay them in one go.
2)
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
The spell is triggered when scribing the scroll, not cast. Metamagic mastery applies to spells you cast (BTW, only to spell you memorized in your wizard spell slots, it is a class ability, so it works on the class spells).
2)Except it's treated as if it is cast; it says so within the same excerpt as you've quoted:The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
The spell is triggered when scribing the scroll, not cast. Metamagic mastery applies to spells you cast (BTW, only to spell you memorized in your wizard spell slots, it is a class ability, so it works on the class spells).
(That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Obviously you are not casting the spell when activating a scroll, as that falls under item activation rules (and was a topic of discussion when Magus was first printed if I remember), but you are casting it at time of creation. All variable factors are decided upon at the time of casting in the case of spontaneous casters and/or effects applied spontaneously at the time of casting, which wpuld be things akin to Spell Mastery, Metamagic Mastery and even something like Sacred Geometry. In this case, when the spell/spell slot is expended when used to make a scroll is when these factors can be added in.
I must note that you would need the gp amount of raw material and required CL and spell slot needed for the end result of the scroll though, and failure to provide these prerequisites at the time of scribing could result in the failure of the scrolls creation and potential ruin of raw materials.
2)Except it's treated as if it is cast; it says so within the same excerpt as you've quoted:The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
The spell is triggered when scribing the scroll, not cast. Metamagic mastery applies to spells you cast (BTW, only to spell you memorized in your wizard spell slots, it is a class ability, so it works on the class spells).(That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Obviously you are not casting the spell when activating a scroll, as that falls under item activation rules (and was a topic of discussion when Magus was first printed if I remember), but you are casting it at time of creation. All variable factors are decided upon at the time of casting in the case of spontaneous casters and/or effects applied spontaneously at the time of casting, which wpuld be things akin to Spell Mastery, Metamagic Mastery and even something like Sacred Geometry. In this case, when the spell/spell slot is expended when used to make a scroll is when these factors can be added in.
I must note that you would need the gp amount of raw material and required CL and spell slot needed for the end result of the scroll though, and failure to provide these prerequisites at the time of scribing could result in the failure of the scrolls creation and potential ruin of raw materials.
as you pointed out you don't actually cast the spell when making the scroll and this faq say that class abilities that modify spell casting only work on actual casting of spells. so you can't use the class ability that lower metamagic spell increase when crafting magic scrolls.
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
but now we have a question. how do you add metamagic to potions and wands as was seen above?! (in Melkiador's' post. 2nd from the start. )
answer?
metamagic make a new version of the spell ( "metamagic version of a spell") so it does not alter the spellcasting itself but the spell.
stuff that alter the spell can be used when making the items. but the ability you speak of doesn't alter the spell rather the spellcasting. which as you mention is not being used while making the item.
if this ability was working on the spell itself you'd had to use it in the process of memorizing the spell when you ready your daily spells, just like how you normally apply metamagic with prepared spellcasters. (you would be memorizing the metamagic version of the spell and while doing that expend the ability use to lower the spell level\casting time)
What I previously posted was from the feats chapter of the core rule book:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
So, you can store the metamagic version of a spell because there is an exception allowing you to do so. Other abilities that modify a spell such as from classes and other feats don't have such an exception unless they specify that they do.