Wyrmling Havoc Dragon CR 8 viable for improved familiar or too strong?

[Senko]

I'm just wondering would a wyrmling havoc dragon Havoc Dragon..

be suitable as an improved familiar or would it be too powerful?

[avr]

If I'm reading that right a wyrmling havoc dragon has 10 HD (with the dragon type so +10/+5 BAB, +7 base all saves, 6+Int skill points/level for 10 levels). That would be a no, never, no chance as a familiar to me, even before considering the possibility of it aging up to very young.

[Senko]

avr wrote:

If I'm reading that right a wyrmling havoc dragon has 10 HD (with the dragon type so +10/+5 BAB, +7 base all saves, 6+Int skill points/level for 10 levels). That would be a no, never, no chance as a familiar to me, even before considering the possibility of it aging up to very young.

Even if you limited it to higher level play like I think some other familiars are e.g. must be a 12th level wizard to select this familiar?

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Even if you play at 20th level it would still be more powerful than other familiars at that level. There is the question of whether that extra power mean much at that level.

I would allow someone to take their familiar as a cohort, however. Take Leadership, a familiar and Improved Familiar and you'd be good in my games. I'd say being a familiar increases the effective level of the cohort by 1 or 2, and normal benefits of familiars, such as improved natural armor, SR or intelligence adjustments, would overlap with existing natural armor and Intelligence, not stack.

[Derklord]

The highest CR for existing Improved Familiars is 3 (and that's rare, only used four times, all others are CR 2 or less). Not counting a single CR 4 one from Paizo's 3.5 days. Anything above is unsuited to be a familiar.

[Senko]

Ok thanks.

[Tim Emrick]

Even the one or two nonstandard Improved Familiar options that I've seen granted by certain PFS Chronicles don't give access to anything with a base CR higher than 2. (I have one character with a non-evil wyrmling nightmare dragon, which is CR 2 and Tiny.)

[Sysryke]

I don't know if they're are options for this or not, but does such a thing as an Improved Animal Companion exist? I'm assuming some similar feat investments and/or archetypes would need to be involved, but considering you can take class features and (or?) feats to become something like a Mammoth rider, is that same critter too strong then?

I have no idea if there's any RAW to support this idea, that's why I'm asking. Just trying to help find alternative options.

[Doompatrol]

Sysryke wrote:

I don't know if they're are options for this or not, but does such a thing as an Improved Animal Companion exist? I'm assuming some similar feat investments and/or archetypes would need to be involved, but considering you can take class features and (or?) feats to become something like a Mammoth rider, is that same critter too strong then?

I have no idea if there's any RAW to support this idea, that's why I'm asking. Just trying to help find alternative options.

There's a feat monstrous mount that gives a very small selection of magical beast animal companions, but nothing as drastic as improved familiar.

The reason likely that the animal companion is miles above a familiar in terms of combat. The improved familiar feat normally just adds some nice tricks, it would be hard to balance the options more outlandish creatures may give you for a single feat for an already capable creature.

If you want a bigger investment in your pet, play the summoner.

[Scavion]

Someone really likes Aivu :)

[Senko]

Scavion wrote:

Someone really likes Aivu :)

I don't deny she may have played a role in this question.