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Hello everyone! As the title suggests, I would like to know how the Mirror Image spell would interact with a subject using Stealth while observed.
I already know from the spell's description that if the recipient is invisible, all the images become invisible too, but I THINK the term invisible applies specifically to magic effects and not to the use of Stealth (even if supernatural).
How should I rule it? I have a human Shadowdancer in the party I'm GMing for that has a trinket with a few charges per day of Mirror Image, and so far I was thinking to go like this: if he's using HiPS + Mirror Image and his enemies both fail their perception check and don't have the means to see through the illusion, the images are still visible in his square and can be attacked. They get an AC of 10 as per standard figment rules, and missing one by 5 or less still destroys one of the images because of the near miss.
What do you think? Should I rule HiPS like magic invisibility (all images disappear) or should I apply this (or any other) houserule?
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invisibility and stealth effects the mirror images too, if they dont see you, they dont see the illusions occupying your square either
a common (that ive seen) trick to avoid mirror image is to shut your eyes and take the 50% miss chance instead (especially if you have blind fight)
@Name Violation
Hmmm I see the point of the "if they dont see you, they dont see the illusions occupying your square either" argument, but I have a hard time imagining enemies with different Perception results being able to either see you and up to 8 copies of you entirely, or not at all... A bit counterintuitive, to be honest, I'm not convinced, especially since the description says that you "must to be able to see the figments to be fooled", not the target per se.
Slightly off-topic and in resposne to the second half of your post: my group and I already had a discussion about the tactic of closing your eyes to reduce the miss chance to a 50% or 25% and I have researched the boards extensively on that subject. To avoid the almost complete banalization of the spell, I house-rule it as follow: you can shut your eyes to attack someone with Mirror Image and reduce the miss chance, but you need to spend a move action to "center yourself" as you force your brain to ignore the mutliple targets that it had just processed (so you basically get only a single, more precise attack instead of a full attack).
This is a RAW question. You cannot deliberately target just an image.
These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly.
Ergo, your images are Hiding in Plain Sight too.
Keep in mind the images aren't hovering feet away from you, they are closely packed against you, such that they are physically struck before you (with usually very minor chance of being hit first instead as they randomly shift). It's not you hiding behind a tree and an image of you is 2ft to the right of the tree giving you away, the image at most adds a couple of inches to your total silhouette.
Thanks both for the new inputs, those are all interesting points of view. While I do not entirely share AwesomenessDog's idea that each image only adds a couple of inches to your total silhouette, I too am inclined to view them more packed together than one would imagine at first.
@Scavion: indeed you cannot deliberately target just an image, since you cannot distinguish it from the original, but the question stands if you and your images hide all at the same time with the same competence. The line that you quoted (together with the idea of more closely packed together illusions) is making me reconsider my initial position and potential house rule.
I guess the Shadowdancer will go "poof" with all of his clones... :P
The other thing to consider is that if the images are visible they have given away your location. That actually increases the chances of you taking damage, which kind of defeats the purpose of both hide in plain sight and mirror image. If I see your images I know which square you are in and can now target you. As Name Violation pointed out I can close my eyes and have a 50% chance to hit you. Casting a defensive spell is supposed to increase your survivability not compromise it.
The "Rules" answer is that Mirror Image has no effect on Hide In Plain Sight, or on Stealth checks in general. This is simply because the rules don't say anything about the spell affecting them.
So from a RAW perspective we know the answer. Now the job of the GM and the Players is to fit those rules into the narrative. How you do that is up to you.
My first question would be: How do you justify the Hide In Plain Sight ability in the first place? For a Shadow Dancer I assume their form becomes shadowy and melds with the darker patches in the scenery around them. Why then would their images not do the same? A Ranger gets this ability at 17th level, but it doesn't come with the supernatural flavour . The thing to remember here is that a 17th level character can perform superhuman feats without the aid of magic. Batman can hide from enemies who are looking at him, Hawkeye can shoot at someone behind him without looking, The Hulk can punch a flying eel monster the size of a skyscraper and stop it mid-air.
So if you've looked at the options presented above and don't really like them, which one can you work with? Maybe you don't really like the shadow idea or the images are actually closer knit idea, but combining them makes it more believable for you - well then combine those two ideas.
You don't even have to share the same belief as the other players at your table, as long as you all see the same result it doesn't really matter how you got there.
TLDR: How CAN you justify this to yourself without losing the believability of the scenario. You don't have to find a perfect explanation, just one that you can work with.
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As MrCharisma said, RAW they have no effect. As a GM I would have them give you a circumstance penalty when hiding. Probably a -2 to the skill modified value.
My reasoning is that you are occupying more space than normal, so your experience with hiding is slightly off.
AwesomenessDog is right when he says that you and your images are densely packed, but the difference isn't a couple of inches. A hit on an image is a clear miss on the character, so most of the image doesn't overlap the character. For a humanoid character, I would say that they are about the thickness of his torso away from the central point, an average of 10-12 inches. They will move back and forth, so sometimes they will be at a higher distance, sometimes at a lower distance.
The constant movement of the images is another factor that impairs your ability to hide.
As MrCharisma said, RAW they have no effect. As a GM I would have them give you a circumstance penalty when hiding. Probably a -2 to the skill modified value.
What I was saying there is that it's your job to justify why the RAW works, not justify why it doesn't.
You have a reason why you think it should give a penalty, but - and this is a direct challenge to you diego - can you think of a reason why it WOULDN'T give a penalty to stealth?
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You have a reason why you think it should give a penalty, but - and this is a direct challenge to you diego - can you think of a reason why it WOULDN'T give a penalty to stealth?
If I need to invent one: it blurs your silhouette, as there are several overlapping images. Instead of a humanoid (or whatever) shaped silhouette we have something that has a way more undefined shape and with parts with different colors overlapping. When combined with hiding the effect is similar to that of a ghillie suit.
I think of it working like one of those face changing video filters. If the filter doesn't detect a face, then it doesn't do anything. The spell works similarly. If you can't detect the target, then the illusion isn't seen either.
If you use Mirror Image in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the images are densely packed around you, and they offset your actual position by 1-2ft on each side of you but they're still considered in your square. Not that any of this is RAW or anything, but fwiw it does illustrate what the creators think it looks like. If you care to see what it looks like in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, go to 24min 50sec.
Anywho, back to RAW; Mirror Image has no effect on HiPS/Stealth at all. If you want to impose penalties on your PC for stealthing with images active, then you're either making up house rules or doing GM circumstance shenanigans. And that's perfectly fine if you do, tbqf, it's your game; but just know that w/e penalties you impose aren't supported by actual rules.
If you use Mirror Image in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the images are densely packed around you, and they offset your actual position by 1-2ft on each side of you but they're still considered in your square. Not that any of this is RAW or anything, but fwiw it does illustrate what the creators think it looks like. If you care to see what it looks like in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, go to 24min 50sec.
Anywho, back to RAW; Mirror Image has no effect on HiPS/Stealth at all. If you want to impose penalties on your PC for stealthing with images active, then you're either making up house rules or doing GM circumstance shenanigans. And that's perfectly fine if you do, tbqf, it's your game; but just know that w/e penalties you impose aren't supported by actual rules.
A thing to keep in mind with the CRPG is that they are spaced out like that so you the player can count how many are left since the game doesn't give you any other indication for friendly or hostile mirror image counts.
But the text of mirror image specifically states they are all in your square, and if we take the average "combat stance width" to be 2ft for a medium width character, in order to keep those 2-8 images within your square, they only have about 1.5 ft left of empty space, meaning there is going to be some overlap at the minimum, I also doubt that the images would fully fill the rest of the space (ala 5ft fleshcube meme), meaning they are pushed further in, which brings me back to my "only a couple/few extra inches to your silhouette" thing.
If the spell really works like in the crpg, then enemies would just always attack the one in the middle.
Yeah that wasn't what I was suggesting; some people upthread were saying "here's what I think it looks like". I was just showing what the creators think they look like. Anywho, the Mirror Images are meant to be tightly packed in your occupied space, and do w/e you do. If you stealth or HiPS, they also stealth.
I always describe Mirror Image as "multiple instances of the same creature competing for the same space"... I often compare it to a "glitch in the Matrix"...
And, I have always ruled it that they do what you do... you Stealth? They Stealth, too... it's just easier that way. I don't try apply reason to it, it's magic in a freaking fantasy game. Lol.
If you use Mirror Image in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the images are densely packed around you, and they offset your actual position by 1-2ft on each side of you but they're still considered in your square. Not that any of this is RAW or anything, but fwiw it does illustrate what the creators think it looks like. If you care to see what it looks like in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, go to 24min 50sec.
Just to be clear. That is what the programmers/artists of the CRPG think it looks like while taking into account UI/UX design for a better gaming experience. While also looking at older CRPGs (Baldur's gate specifically) that serves as a clear direct inspiration for Kingmaker. eg, mirror image from kingmaker looks very similar to mirror image in baldurs gate (discounting the obvious graphical improvements over the many years difference between the games).
That may or may not be at all what the creators of pathfinder (PDT) think it looks like.
If you use Mirror Image in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the images are densely packed around you, and they offset your actual position by 1-2ft on each side of you but they're still considered in your square. Not that any of this is RAW or anything, but fwiw it does illustrate what the creators think it looks like. If you care to see what it looks like in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, go to 24min 50sec.
Just to be clear. That is what the programmers/artists of the CRPG think it looks like while taking into account UI/UX design for a better gaming experience. While also looking at older CRPGs (Baldur's gate specifically) that serves as a clear direct inspiration for Kingmaker. eg, mirror image from kingmaker looks very similar to mirror image in baldurs gate (discounting the obvious graphical improvements over the many years difference between the games).
That may or may not be at all what the creators of pathfinder (PDT) think it looks like.
I've always envisioned Mirror Image exactly as shown in the CRPG, except densely packed in your occupied space, not 1-2ft from you. It's not a "blur" effect of images that follow your movements after you perform them as others have envisioned, but rather it is several images doing exactly as you do at the exact millisecond you do it. The CRPG designers undoubtedly put the images 1-2ft away from the body for the player's ease in counting how many images you have left.
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This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square.
So, up to 9 creature-sized images that occupy the area occupied by your body. For sure there isn't a 1-2 feet separation between you and the images, but almost certainly there is a distance of 1-2 feet between the center point of one image and the center point of another image (or of your body). Your body isn't necessarily at the center of the cluster of images, the images move around and the same image can be at a time ahead of you, at a time behind you. At all times several of the images will be partially overlapping you.
Your size will make a lot of difference, as a large creature with Mirror images will fill a 2x2 square area, and the images will fill the same area, so all images will partially overlap with the body of the creature.
I was already pretty convinced of letting the images disappear as you use Stealth after the first few posts of this thread, but thanks everybody for all the additional inputs, it's all good food for thought for sure.
Just a quick reply @Mysterious Stranger: the fact that they could or could not give away the location of the Shadowdancer was indeed the whole point of our doubts at the table, and the main reason that was holding back my player from using the charges of his trinket.