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Hello wonderful Paizo forum users! I did a Support Bard Guide to go along with my earlier Cleric guide.
I've been thinking about maybe doing a Rogue and Fighter guide as well, and then an encompassing 'Basic Party Guide' using Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Bard to highlight PF2's various party dynamics.
I finished this guide a little quicker, and didn't give it the editing polish that I did for Cleric.
If anybody sees anything that doesn't look correct, or wants to argue a point, please mention it here!
Oh god, the shame!
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I hope I'm not nitpicking.
On Inspire Competence, it ONLY works for skill checks. Not "any" checks as stated in the guide.
BTW - Inspire Competence IS A GOOD feat... not saying it isn't.
I'm running an "Aid" Bard right now. I went Swashbuckler Multiclass at level 2, then One For All at level 4 since One For All works for all checks (but is based on Diplomacy, not Performance).
Hm, I totally did not know that check isn’t a suitable shorthand for skill checks, and instead includes attack rolls and saving throws.
Huh….
Thanks!
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I feel real bad, so I'll just make one more post on skills, then sit back and let others have a say.
You list Medicine at "A" for a Bard, and Medicine is generally a good skill, BUT as you state in the guide, the Bard is starved for skill increases.
While Bard has the standard 3 skills it can improve to Legendary, one is pretty much locked to Performance. While not obligatory, many Bards will advance Occultism, especially if they're going Bardic Lore, want to be good at Rituals or simply consider it their class's special knowledge skill (like the Cleric who maxes Religion). And what's a Bard without a social skill? Deception, Diplomacy and/or Intimidation, depending on what kind of Bard you are going for, social skills are your shtick.
When PF2 first came out, I kind of grooved on Versatile Performance, but I've since cooled on the feat.
It doesn't give you diplomacy... it just lets you "Make an Impression" using Performance. So you can't use it to Gather Information or Request. So, I can improve the target's attitude towards me (Make an Impression), but I can't close the deal (Request)!
It doesn't give you Intimidation... it just lets you "Demoralize" using Performance. You can't Coerce or use it with Scare to Death.
It doesn't give you Deception... it just lets you "Impersonate" using Performance. You can't use it to "Create A Diversion" or "Lie".
Versatile Performance is ok, but it really isn't a substitute for actually having social skills. Maybe if they come out with additional Versatile Performance feats that expand on its use, it might be more useful.
But the point is that Versatile Performance really doesn't substitute for actually having a social skill (except possibly Intimidation if you just want to Demoralize).
So where am I going with this? Bards don't really have an unused skill advancement for Medicine. You can make a "Medic" Bard, but it'll cost you.
I would leave the Medicine skill (at least anything more than Trained) to other characters.
I do find your guide interesting as I like to gather ideas about a class from different people/guides. It's always good to get a perspective from others... you may learn something new or realize you could do something better. Keep writing the guides and don't let the opinion of others (like me) discourage you because if everyone agreed on everything, the game would be boring!
Agreed on Versatile Performance for the most part. I would say it does a good job of substituting Diplomacy though, since it also unlocks feats and once you get Shameless Request your requests just become an issue of time and energy.
I rank Medicine highly because:
A) You really only need Expert to get 90% of the value.
B) It offers three good skill feats with just Expert, which is great for Bard.
C) Treat Wounds is incredibly important.
D) You have a freehand for Battle Medicine.
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First of all: Thanks for making this! Guides are great and while I personally prefer more detailed and word-y guides, condensing everything importat down to just a few pages with great layout is awesome.
I did notice a few things that you might want to change/add, though.
I'd add Adapted Cantrip to the human list of good feats. It can get you Electric Arc or any other good cantrip (current or future) from any tradition. That's pretty good, even if you go Half-Elf and pick up Otherworldly Magic. Cooperative Nature is also a very good feat to boost your Aid towards auto-success a few levels earlier while also increasing your chance for a critical success.
I'd add Virtuosic Performaner to Key Feats for the Performance skill. It won't work in every situation (because sometimes you need an auditory or visual performance) but in most. Gets you the same bonus as an Accompanist familiar, but is easier to get. And even if you already have a familiar it frees up an ability slot. Athletics might also be worth listing as a good skill because you can trip enemies from behind your tank with a Whip.
For Feats, I'd add Symphony of the Muses as at least B tier at level 20. It sucks that you need Harmonize as a prerequisite, but since you probably get Eternal Composition at 18 anyway, Symphony will allow you to still utilize Lingering Performance. And having Inspire Courage/Defense AND Dirge running at the same time is ridiculously good.
I'd add Swashbuckler with One for All to the recommended Archetypes. A charisma-based Aid action for attack rolls at 30 feet range is very very good. Cirumstance bonuses to attack are hard to come by otherwise. Marshal with Inspiring Marshal stance is also awesome. You can use it instead of Inspire Courage so you can buff your allies while debuffing all enemies with Dirge. At level 20 ith Symphony of the muses you can use Dirge, Inspire Defense and the Aura to effectively push the balance of a fight 2 levels in your party's favor. The low range is a bit of a downside (as is the need for martial weapons) but manageable if you happen to be near the frontline for stuff like Tripping with a Whip anyway.
I would also add Circle of Protection as a noteworthy spell at level 4. Gotta keep stacking those auras - and this one can even originate from one of your front liners! You're also missing Shadow Siphon which will often be better for reducing damage than Scintillating Saveguard. Note that Shadow Siphon works against all magical effects, not only spells. Magic damage effects include stuff like a Dragon's Breath attack and even a Balor's Death Throes.
First of all: Thanks for making this! Guides are great and while I personally prefer more detailed and word-y guides, condensing everything importat down to just a few pages with great layout is awesome.
I did notice a few things that you might want to change/add, though.
I'd add Adapted Cantrip to the human list of good feats. It can get you Electric Arc or any other good cantrip (current or future) from any tradition. That's pretty good, even if you go Half-Elf and pick up Otherworldly Magic. Cooperative Nature is also a very good feat to boost your Aid towards auto-success a few levels earlier while also increasing your chance for a critical success.
I'd add Virtuosic Performaner to Key Feats for the Performance skill. It won't work in every situation (because sometimes you need an auditory or visual performance) but in most. Gets you the same bonus as an Accompanist familiar, but is easier to get. And even if you already have a familiar it frees up an ability slot. Athletics might also be worth listing as a good skill because you can trip enemies from behind your tank with a Whip.
For Feats, I'd add Symphony of the Muses as at least B tier at level 20. It sucks that you need Harmonize as a prerequisite, but since you probably get Eternal Composition at 18 anyway, Symphony will allow you to still utilize Lingering Performance. And having Inspire Courage/Defense AND Dirge running at the same time is ridiculously good.
I'd add Swashbuckler with One for All to the recommended Archetypes. A charisma-based Aid action for attack rolls at 30 feet range is very very good. Cirumstance bonuses to attack are hard to come by otherwise. Marshal with Inspiring Marshal stance is also awesome. You can use it instead of Inspire Courage so you can buff your allies while debuffing all enemies with Dirge. At level 20 ith Symphony of the muses you can use Dirge, Inspire Defense and the Aura to effectively push the balance of a fight 2 levels in your party's favor. The low range is a bit of a downside (as is the...
I left Adapted Cantrip off since it takes one of your original cantrip slots.
I’m not a huge fan of in-combat Aid for Bard. It’s really more of a third-action than a reaction, and Bard has plenty of third-action options already. I’d rather find feats that can make your reaction relevant on it’s own.
I wouldn’t recommend using Athletics to trip. Even with a whip you still need strength, unless you’re using assurance, and again you’re fighting with other strong third-actions.
I wouldn’t recommend Martial Archetype since it requires Martial Weapon Proficiency.
Agreed that Lv4 Circle of Protection is great, but I’ve largely ignored non-ancestry uncommon content.
Shadow Siphon I like, but it competes with Synesthesia and Slow for spell slots and you’re otherwise decently covered by Silence and Safeguard.
Bard has plenty of third-action options already.
Such as? Compositions are running on their own for at least half of an average combat.
Your suggested third action is firing a shortbow. I don't see how that could be more optimal than giving one of your martial friends up to +4 to one attack each round.
Keeping your bow relevant costs a good chunk of money you could use on other things if just don't use a weapon at all or use a whip for trip instead (which at the very least saves you the mony for striking runes).
Investing a bit into Strength for Athletics doesn't look too bad to me either. You're still making the check easier with Dirge, giving you a headstart. And even if it doesn't work every turn, making the enemy waste an action to get up which potentially can trigger reactions from multiple of your allies. That's a huge deal and potentially devastating even if it works only once per combat.
Not sure how Shadow Siphon competes with Slow...? It can also cut an 8th level spell in half if you cast it at only 5th level and succeed on the check. That'll be much more effecive then Sageguard. Also, depending on your party composition, someone lese might be able cast Safeguard on top of your Shadow Siphon.
Some of the options I mentioned might take a bit of an investment, but they are very powerful if you're able/willing to make that investment. Not even mentioning thme as options just seems a bit weird to me.
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Thats . I've got a new Bard I'm going to point this to. Its nice to just list the best points like you hvae. I disagree about some of yout spell choices. But you have justified them quite well.
I especially like your Summon Fey Guide.
Cheers
I think a Sprite is the best bard. Its got the same stats as an Elf. Doesn't need to worry about weapons, some good innate spells, and it starts on a mount which will help out its action economy by doing the moving.
I think a Sprite is the best bard. Its got the same stats as an Elf. Doesn't need to worry about weapons, some good innate spells, and it starts on a mount which will help out its action economy by doing the moving.
Agreed. I didn't find a good place to mention it, but I avoided Rare and non-ancestry Uncommon content. I didn't want to normalize their access.
Rare content is often just more powerful content.
Thats . I've got a new Bard I'm going to point this to. Its nice to just list the best points like you hvae. I disagree about some of yout spell choices. But you have justified them quite well.
I especially like your Summon Fey Guide.Cheers
My goal with the spells was: 'If a player takes these B+ options and a mix of C options they will have 90% of what they need'.
I think adventure context and personal preference is variant enough that the rest can be left to players to fill in.
That said, any spell choices you would have different? This is definitely the part of the guide that I feel needs the most editing.
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Magic Weapon. By 3-4 you are going to be retraining it out, but for the first couple of levels it’s the best spell in the game.
Magic Weapon, inspire courage and move to flank gives the fighter +4 to hit and an extra die of damage.
First of all: Thanks for making this! Guides are great and while I personally prefer more detailed and word-y guides, condensing everything importat down to just a few pages with great layout is awesome.
I did notice a few things that you might want to change/add, though.
Lots of points...
Using a free archetype, I've made exactly the bard you mention in all the points, except for Athletics.
Swashbuckler: one for All (ridiculous with the +4 to aid), add Guardians deflectiom to make the whip super effective.
Marshal: inspiring stance (not used yet, coming up)
Electric arc as cantrip.
Virtuosic Performance is wonderful as an extra plus.
Circle of protection is perfect in combination with bless and dirge, often not much more is needed actually.
Shadow syphon is really strong, even if it competes with Synesthesia. Shadow Siphon could even be the signature spell for 5th level.
Only item I would add to the list is Rogue ded, for skill mastery. Really needed. I'm not a fan of versatile performance, so skill mastery is often used. Don't have that many bard feats selected actually. Mainly dirge. Inspire heroics doesn't add much, lingering is better for action economy.
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Hello wonderful Paizo forum users! I did a Support Bard Guide to go along with my earlier Cleric guide.
I've been thinking about maybe doing a Rogue and Fighter guide as well, and then an encompassing 'Basic Party Guide' using Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Bard to highlight PF2's various party dynamics.
I finished this guide a little quicker, and didn't give it the editing polish that I did for Cleric.
If anybody sees anything that doesn't look correct, or wants to argue a point, please mention it here!
Finally had some time to go over it in detail. I still like the way you present the information, clear, easy overview.
As to the content: It wouldn't be my advice, but that is opinion of course.
Some comments:
- I can't see ever making an attack with a bard. Too many other actions that can be taken, so advising shortbow and crit effects as important strengths for a bard (except warrior maybe) sounds strange.
- Signature spells a weakness? I consider that one of the strengths of spontaneous casters. Lack of spells is an issue. Choices choices.
- Familiar as goal. Useful maybe if it fits your view and you have the option through an ancestry, but I'd not use a feat on it.
- Depending on your build, I would rate Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidation A/B. Never medicine. Soothe for healing if needed, otherwise any other action. Diplomacy route has a lot of advantages, Bon Mot, One for all, its strongest of the three I think for a bard.
- Notable class feats: Ultimate Polymath. All spells are signature. very strong with the correct spell list. Choose the best spells per level and all are signature.
- Recommended archetype is the part with which I have the most issues. I wouldn't add any of them, ever, to a bard. Swashbuckler, Rogue, Marshal, Dandy, Linguist, Celebrity, those can add much in my opinion.
- Spells: A whole lot missing from what I would advice. Per level, I think you should advice a combination of signature spells and non-signature spells (spells strong on their own level), to get the most out of a list. and also rate spells for their use as non-sig spells. Something like:
Level 1:
- Soothe (sig)
- Summon Fey (sig)
- Command
- Bless
Level 2
- Dispel (sig)
- Invisibility (sig)
- Hideous laughter
etc
Some superb spells missing from the list: Bless (combine with dirge and CoP), invis (4th), circle of prot (4th, wand), Hideous laug (no reactions!), phantasmal killer (sig), Shadow walk, teleport(7th+).
Hello wonderful Paizo forum users! I did a Support Bard Guide to go along with my earlier Cleric guide.
I've been thinking about maybe doing a Rogue and Fighter guide as well, and then an encompassing 'Basic Party Guide' using Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Bard to highlight PF2's various party dynamics.
I finished this guide a little quicker, and didn't give it the editing polish that I did for Cleric.
If anybody sees anything that doesn't look correct, or wants to argue a point, please mention it here!
Finally had some time to go over it in detail. I still like the way you present the information, clear, easy overview.
As to the content: It wouldn't be my advice, but that is opinion of course.
Some comments:
- I can't see ever making an attack with a bard. Too many other actions that can be taken, so advising shortbow and crit effects as important strengths for a bard (except warrior maybe) sounds strange.
- Signature spells a weakness? I consider that one of the strengths of spontaneous casters. Lack of spells is an issue. Choices choices.
- Familiar as goal. Useful maybe if it fits your view and you have the option through an ancestry, but I'd not use a feat on it.
- Depending on your build, I would rate Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidation A/B. Never medicine. Soothe for healing if needed, otherwise any other action. Diplomacy route has a lot of advantages, Bon Mot, One for all, its strongest of the three I think for a bard.
- Notable class feats: Ultimate Polymath. All spells are signature. very strong with the correct spell list. Choose the best spells per level and all are signature.
- Recommended archetype is the part with which I have the most issues. I wouldn't add any of them, ever, to a bard. Swashbuckler, Rogue, Marshal, Dandy, Linguist, Celebrity, those can add much in my opinion.
- Spells: A whole lot missing from what I would...
- Ha, Shortbow ended up being a huge controversy over on Reddit. Not what I was expecting. But yeah, it’s really good. Shortbow is an excellent martial weapon that doesn’t get in the way of Spellcasting and Bard never falls more than -3 attack bonus behind martials. Your first strike is a great default third action that has approximately the same value as a martials second strike. You should try it, it’s good.
- I was highlighting the headache of unlearning and relearning spells at a higher level that Signature spells forces you to do. I’ve had multiple players get frustrated with the optimization puzzle, and it’s a decently popular homebrew to just allow you to pick any or your spells of any level when selecting new Signatures. Not a mechanical power issue, more a comment on ‘quality of life’ user experience.
- Familiars are good yo. Ignoring accompanist, you’ve got a slew of adaptable action economy boosts. Think of it as the level 10 Quickened Casting feat with other bonuses stapled on.
- Agreed that Diplomacy is the top Bard social skill and quite good. I don’t rank Deception and Intimidation highly though. For Intimidation you should really already have Dirge. For Deception I think the only investment you need is trained. Medicine is almost strictly necessary for any non-Stamina variant game, only really requires Expert skill advancement, and gives you a great third-action in Battle Medicine. Super good skill and feats with low skill increase costs.
- The listed archetypes all cover your major weaknesses, giving you extra action economy, cheap skill increases, or reactions. They’re great subtle archetypes that I would recommend taking a second glance at. Also, you can’t take Marshal since you don’t have Martial Weapon Proficiency. Otherwise it’d be on my list.
- If you look at the right hand column, I’m already highlighting signature vs non-signature spells. Circle of Protection definitely is powerful, but I avoided recommending any non-ancestry uncommon or rare content. Don’t want to normalize its access. The other spells you mentioned are good, but depend on campaign or party context a bit too much for my taste. I wanted to hit the general high notes that I would leave a player with 80-90% of what they need and let them figure the rest out.
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I think a Sprite is the best bard. Its got the same stats as an Elf. Doesn't need to worry about weapons, some good innate spells, and it starts on a mount which will help out its action economy by doing the moving.Agreed. I didn't find a good place to mention it, but I avoided Rare and non-ancestry Uncommon content. I didn't want to normalize their access.
Rare content is often just more powerful content.
Fair enough. I prefer to run with everything in the game. I don't play PFS as such so its not a big issue for me. I don't find Rare unbalanced. They are pretty good with the trade offs.
Short bow is excellent. It gives you a really solid default, from level 1. Especially in smaller parties where the bonuses from buffing is not so strong.
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Not saying Shortbow isn't good. I'm saying I never have the actions left to attack, or have the money to upgrade it to comparable levels. There is a lot of stuff a bard can use. The whip gives me the following advantages: threaten at range (useful for the party), use Guardians deflection at range (excellent reaction).
Familiars: meh. But I can see others would like it.
Actually deception is very nice in combination with Illusory disguise. No combat use, but very useful out of combat, or skipping a combat. Intimidation also has out of combat uses, as I agree Dirge is your main fear method. Still don't agree with medicine, Soothe usually suffices.
Swashbuckler: Reaction in Guardians deflection. Best (re)action in One for All.
Rogue: Mobility, skill mastery (extra skills, extra feats), evasiness (cover another save next to canny acumen, you can get master/master/legend).
Marshal is just one general feat, one class feat or one free archetype feat away.
Linguist to help you with the linguistic issues in a campaign, for a bard very important.
So each fall into the category you mention: "The listed archetypes all cover your major weaknesses, giving you extra action economy, cheap skill increases, or reactions"
For the spell section as an improvement meant to add spells which are also very good always on their level. Command/Bless are always good, independent of your level. Now you only mention three possible signature spells at first level. You can only have one.
For the spell section as an improvement meant to add spells which are also very good always on their level. Command/Bless are always good, independent of your level. Now you only mention three possible signature spells at first level. You can only have one.
Yeah, I highly recommend people learn Summon Fey and Phantom Pain at Spell Lv2-4 so you can also Signature them. They're both really excellent spells. I should throw a chart together showing how well Phantom Pain scales; 2d4 per level that is never halved is goooood.
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So why not use MM than? Always hit, better damage type, you could get status bonusses to damage for each target.
So why not use MM than? Always hit, better damage type, you could get status bonusses to damage for each target.
Magic Missile scales 7 dam every two spell levels.
Phantom Pain scales 5 dam every spell level.