Sorcerer with Spell Perfection

[vorpalwarrior]

Pathfinder 1st Edition

I have a question regarding a Human Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer with the trait and feats listed below.

1. Magical Lineage Fireball: reduce spell slot by 1 if a metamagic feat increases the spell slot by at least 1
2. Elemental Spell Acid: change spell's energy type to acid
3. Bloodline Arcana: +1 to saving throw DC when metamagic increases the spell slot by at least 1
4. Spell Penetration: +2 to Spell Resistance rolls
5. Greater Spell Penetration: +2 to Spell Resistance rolls (stacks with Spell Penetration)
6. Spell Focus Evocation: +1 to saving throw DC
7. Intensified Spell: increase damage by 5 dice
8. Greater Spell Focus Evocation: +1 to saving throw DC (stacks with Spell Focus Evocation)
9. Elemental Focus Acid: +1 to saving throw DC
10. Greater Elemental Focus Acid: +1 to saving throw DC (stacks with Elemental Focus Acid)
11. School Power Evocation: +2 to saving throw DC (stacks with Spell Focus Evocation)
12. Spell Perfection Fireball

This 15th-level sorcerer casts Fireball with Elemental Spell Acid (+1 spell slot) and Intensified Spell (+1 spell slot) applied to take Fireball from 3rd-level to 5th-level. Magical Lineage Fireball should bring the spell back down to 4th-level. Because the spell slot is increased by at least one, Bloodline Arcana should apply.

My question is how does Spell Perfection Fireball double the bonuses of 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11? For example, are the two +2 Spell Resistance bonuses both doubled for a total of +8? The saving throw modifiers seem to stack to +7; are these all doubled for a total of +14?

I believe this spell would require a 4th-level spell slot and do 15d6 acid damage with a Spell Resistance roll of 1d20 + 15 + 8 and a Reflex saving throw DC of 10 + 3 + 14 + CHA modifier.

FYI, the sorcerer also has a third metamagic feat and 15 ranks in Spellcraft to qualify for Spell Perfection.

As always, I appreciate the feedback.

[Lelomenia]

Perfection only doubles bonuses from feats;

So you’d get +8 to Spell Resistance checks, but +11 to DC.

[AwesomenessDog]

Keep in mind that you also only spend a 3rd level slot, as spell perfection negates the cost increase for the second metamagic feat even though that doesn't make it not work with your bloodline arcana. But you can also apply other metamagic feats that might cost more than a +1 increase.

[zza ni]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Keep in mind that you also only spend a 3rd level slot, as spell perfection negates the cost increase for the second metamagic feat even though that doesn't make it not work with your bloodline arcana. But you can also apply other metamagic feats that might cost more than a +1 increase.

yep like getting quicken spell so you can lob off a quicken 4th level fireball (having quicken be the 'free' metamagic there) and a 3rd level "normal action" fireball (having the intensified+acid be affected by perfection +trait). both acid and intensified.

[vorpalwarrior]

Thank you for the feedback.

I have a few questions because now I think I do not understand how some of these feats and abilities work.

Spell Perfection:
I thought the spell slot level and casting time of a "Spell Perfection spell" do not change only if just one metamagic feat is applied; if more than one metamagic feat is applied, then spell slot level and casting time are increased. But it sounds like people are saying that a "Spell Perfection spell" gets one "free" metamagic feat, and more metamagic feats may be added that affect spell slot level but do not increase casting time. Is that the way Spell Perfection works? Basically, does a sorcerer's "Spell Perfection Fireball" always have a casting time of one standard action regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied (unless Quicken Spell is used to reduce the casting time to one swift action)?

Elemental Spell Acid with Magical Lineage Fireball and Arcane Bloodline Arcana:
I thought Elemental Spell Acid would increase Fireball from 3rd to 4th, Magical Lineage Fireball would decrease it from 4th to 3rd, and Arcane Bloodline Arcana would not apply because the final spell slot level did not increase by at least one. But it sounds like people are saying that Arcane Bloodline Arcana does apply because Elemental Spell Acid increased the spell slot, albeit briefly. Is that the way these work?

Metamagic Adept:
Similar to Spell Perfection, I think Metamagic Adept applies only if just one metamagic feat is applied; if more than one metamagic feat is applied, then Metamagic Adept does not apply. Is that the way Metamagic Adept works?

As always, I appreciate the feedback.

[Chell Raighn]

Spell perfection does NOT reduce the casting time for metamagic applied after the first. Additionally it is not really a “free” metamagic application… you still total up the spell slot modification for ALL metamagics applied, then it the total slot modification does not exceed 9th level you may at that point remove the modification cost and casting time increase of ONE metamagic feat applied to your chosen spell.

Arcane bloodline arcana only looks at the cost modification of the feat itself, not the final modification cost. This is why it points out that it doesn’t stack with itself and that heighten spell doesn’t work with it. Multiple metamagics would increase the DC increase if it were able to stack with itself. So yes, elemental spell with a reduced final spell slot cost of +0 still gets a +1 DC because elemental spell itself is a +1 slot cost.

Metamagic adept can be applied when using multiple metamagics on one spell, but it only affects ONE metamagic per spell. This does however allow you to combine metamagic adept and spell perfection for 2 metamagics with io carting time increase.

[zza ni]

from the feat:
" Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time"

so only one metamagic feat is free of level and time.

next

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you apply a metamagic feat to a spell that increases the slot used by at least one level, increase the spell's DC by +1. This bonus does not stack with itself and does not apply to spells modified by the Heighten Spell feat.

seem like if you do not end up increasing the level it will not increase the dc. in each case if at least one feat did increase the level then it does.

quicken: quick for free. acid for 1 less but intense for 1 level so 1 4th level spell with +1 dc for arcana. notice since quicken was used so it stay quicken even if other metamagic were used as long as it would have been a full round to cast it without.

normal : only intense and acid, +1 for free from perfection, +1 for free from trait = no increase so no dc increase.

Metamagic Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you can apply any one metamagic feat you know to a spell you are about to cast without increasing the casting time. You must still expend a higher-level spell slot to cast this spell. You can use this ability once per day at 3rd level and one additional time per day for every four sorcerer levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to five times per day at 19th level. At 20th level, this ability is replaced by arcane apotheosis.

in this case you use a daily use of metamagic adept ability once per casting to ignore the increased casting time of one spell. so you can have one free intense from perfection (no extra time or level). and use one use of adept to negate the extra time of the acid and the trait to negate the extra level for a standard action acid intense fireball (with no increase to dc from the bloodline arcana). but you will have to use one of your 1+1/3 leveles past 3rd /day.

of course all this before level 20. once you hit that capstone. no metamagic increase casting time.

[AwesomenessDog]

Chell Raighn wrote:

Spell perfection does NOT reduce the casting time for metamagic applied after the first. Additionally it is not really a “free” metamagic application… you still total up the spell slot modification for ALL metamagics applied, then it the total slot modification does not exceed 9th level you may at that point remove the modification cost and casting time increase of ONE metamagic feat applied to your chosen spell.

The time doesn't need to be reduced, a quickened spell is always a swift action even with other metamagics (unless you cant quicken it to begin with). There isn't a metamagic feat that can bring a 4th level spell above 9 and the user is intending this to be a low level feat the extend forever so by level 16, he can certainly cast a effective 8th level quickened etc. fireball.

[Ryze Kuja]

If you want to reduce the cast time of your Fireball, you can use your Metamagic Adept bloodline power, or you can get Heighten Spell --> Preferred Spell (Fireball). This allows you to mix in any MM feat that you know into Fireball, heighten it to w/e level you want, and cast it with a Standard. Preferred Spell works all day with no max uses.

[Belafon]

vorpalwarrior wrote:

Spell Perfection:

I thought the spell slot level and casting time of a "Spell Perfection spell" do not change only if just one metamagic feat is applied; if more than one metamagic feat is applied, then spell slot level and casting time are increased. But it sounds like people are saying that a "Spell Perfection spell" gets one "free" metamagic feat, and more metamagic feats may be added that affect spell slot level but do not increase casting time. Is that the way Spell Perfection works? Basically, does a sorcerer's "Spell Perfection Fireball" always have a casting time of one standard action regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied (unless Quicken Spell is used to reduce the casting time to one swift action)?

You thought correctly. One metamagic feat would not increase casting time, multiple metamagic feats would.

I think you're getting confused because people are offering advice like "...if you add the Quicken metamagic..." A Quickened fireball will always be a swift action regardless of how many other metamagic feats you are able to add to it.

Quote:

Elemental Spell Acid with Magical Lineage Fireball and Arcane Bloodline Arcana:

I thought Elemental Spell Acid would increase Fireball from 3rd to 4th, Magical Lineage Fireball would decrease it from 4th to 3rd, and Arcane Bloodline Arcana would not apply because the final spell slot level did not increase by at least one. But it sounds like people are saying that Arcane Bloodline Arcana does apply because Elemental Spell Acid increased the spell slot, albeit briefly. Is that the way these work?

You thought correctly.

Though some people may try to pretzel the language around to fit an interpretation, the end result is that you aren't increasing the spell level so the Arcana would not apply.

Quote:

Metamagic Adept:

Similar to Spell Perfection, I think Metamagic Adept applies only if just one metamagic feat is applied; if more than one metamagic feat is applied, then Metamagic Adept does not apply. Is that the way Metamagic Adept works?

This one you're wrong on, though I can see how you can read it that way. If you add two or more metamagic feats to a spell you can still use Metamagic Adept. Just pick one of the metamagic feats to not add to casting time. The other(s) add to casting time as normal.

By itself that isn't very helpful. The net casting time increase for a sorcerer almost always the same whether it's one, two, or four metamagic feats that count. Unless of course you have other abilities that let you ignore casting time increases from additional metamagics.

So if you have Spell Perfection (fireball) and use Metamagic Adept, you can apply two Metamagic feats to fireball without increasing the casting time.

[vorpalwarrior]

Thank you for the feedback.

I think I understand sorcerer metamagic better now. I have just a few more questions.

1. Spell Perfection and Metamagic Adept seem similar in that each one allows the sorcerer to add one metamagic feat (each) without increasing casting time. They are different in that Spell Perfection applies to one spell but can be used every time that spell is cast while Metamagic Adept can be applied to any spell but can only be used a limited number of times per day based on sorcerer level. Is that correct?

2. The default for Metamagic Adept seems to be that it is not applied until the sorcerer chooses to do so. Can a sorcerer with Magical Lineage or Spell Perfection choose not to apply those to a spell in order to have Bloodline Arcana apply? For example, can a sorcerer with Magical Lineage Fireball and Elemental Spell Acid cast an Acid Fireball that uses a 4th-level spell slot, takes one full round to cast, and gets the benefit of Bloodline Arcana by choosing not to use Magical Lineage Fireball?

3. Assume a sorcerer has the following laundry list: Elemental Spell Acid (+1 slot), Magical Lineage Fireball (-1 slot), Intensified Spell (+1 slot), Empower Spell (+2 slots), Maximize Spell (+3 slots), Quicken Spell (+4 slots), and Spell Perfection Fireball (apply one metamagic feat without increasing casting time). Can this sorcerer cast Fireball with the trait and all the feats applied?

The spell slot level would be 3rd (Fireball) + 1 (Elemental Spell Acid) -1 (Magical Lineage Fireball) + 1 (Intensified Spell) + 2 (Empower Spell) + 3 (Maximize Spell) + 0 (Spell Perfection Fireball means Quicken spell's increase does not apply) = 9th (castable at 18th-level). The casting time would be one swift action. The acid damage would be 15x6 + (15d6)x0.5 or 97-135.

With Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Bloodline Arcana, Spell Focus Evocation, and School Power Evocation, the SR roll would be 1d20 + 18 + 8, and the Reflex DC would be 10 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 2 + CHA modifier (minimum +4) = 22 minimum.

As always, I appreciate the feedback.