I am having a hard time finding RAW about Cohorts when a Leadership score falls or the feat's owner dies. Other forums have said a Cohort's level is established when the feat is taken, so it cannot be reduced after that so long as the Cohort lives. So if you have a 12th LVL PC borrow some device granting +6 Charisma and they then attained the Leadership feat they could get a Cohort of 10th level even if they would not have without the modifier. Now that PC returns the borrowed augmenter - and should have a Cohort of 7th level -- does the first cohort leave, drop in level, or stay the same?
I also cannot find rules for a similar circumstance for when a PC loses Leadership score for other reasons, like behavior, that should have the Cohort drop in level by the leadership feat description.
Also, there seems to be no element for determining the Cohort's status or abilities if the Leadership owning character dies. Does the Cohort adventure on without them, leave, lose levels - anything? If the Cohort was 1 EXP short of 11th level and the PC died and the Cohort earned experience and becomes 11th level, when the PC is raised from the dead - does the Cohort drop back to the level they should be as defined by the feat? Do they no longer become a cohort and the PC can get a new one, even though they are still hanging with the old one?
Is there any published guidance on this I am missing?
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I imagine the cohort would remain the same level as it was, and just meander away to do whatever they want on their own...
You are trying to attract a companion, and can fail at the attenpt. If your score drops below what is required to maintain their loyalty towards you, they leave.
The idea of subtracting earned experience from the cohort simply because your score lowers does not make logical sense... to me, at least.
But, to be fair, neither does them leaving mid combat because of Charisma drain. But yes, the cohort is still a character of a certain level, thus someone else could try to recruit them at their current level or they can simply return to the background still at that level.
That said, the OP's character who died should still gain experience if he was raised from the dead as he is still a member of the party, and his cohort would still be considered their cohort, meaning that experience wouldn't be earned if the cohort couldn't advance without the character dying.
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Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level.
Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself.
RAW, the requirement is to have the appropriate leadership level when you attract a cohort. After that the level of the cohort increase with your level, but the leadership score isn't checked after that.
RAI? I think it matters. If I am the GM and your Leadership score drops because of your behavior or because you have permanently lost Charisma, after a time the cohort will start doubting his decision and could decide to leave you.
It will not be something immediate, but it will be proportional to how long you have worked together.
If today you recruit me and tomorrow your behavior change (because you have returned the +6 to Charisma item you used) I will start questioning almost immediately if you have influenced my mind in some way.
IF we have worked together for months, you are hit by a creature that drains charisma, and for a few days your charisma is reduced to a handful of points, I will feel that you have been wounded by a monster and that you need to be cured. I will not doubt all that was done together for months.
If the guy with leadership dies, my opinion is that the cohort will stay with the group at least until they can get to a safe place and try to raise the dead character.
If that fails, the cohort will probably leave when it becomes clear that the PC will stay dead.
I imagine the cohort would remain the same level as it was, and just meander away to do whatever they want on their own...
You are trying to attract a companion, and can fail at the attenpt. If your score drops below what is required to maintain their loyalty towards you, they leave.
The idea of subtracting earned experience from the cohort simply because your score lowers does not make logical sense... to me, at least.
I'm with you.
If something causes your leadership level to drop below what is required for a companion of that level of a "permanent" basis it would represent no longer having the appeal to keep such a powerful ally.
They would leave you and no longer choose to be your companion, how/why I frame it within the game would depend on circumstances.
Now they wont instantly leave mid-combat. And the cause could even be temporary things that I would basically ignore, but the example of having a magical item which "counts as permanent for as long as you have it" and then ditching the magical item would count as "permanently losing that charisma bonus and permanently reducing your leadership score" in my book.
So yeah, no gaming the system. You're going to loose your companion (if I were your GM).
Although honestly I wouldn't allow leadership in the first place unless the party only consists of 2 or less PCs.
If I ever run Kingmaker again, I am going to give everyone Leadership as soon as they hit level 7. Might do it when I run Skulls & Shackles, too. In some settings, I think it frees the player to focus on what they want their character to do... whilst having a cohort they can groom for campaign/setting specific duties.
Regardless, the cohort should not regress simply because your score lowers... at most, they simply leave to do their own thing.
A more likely situation to face with a cohort is simply for you to gain a level but your Leadership score fails to increase enough for your cohort to be able to gain levels again. But for the case of a Leadership score decrease, I would definitely wait long enough to confirm that a condition is permanent -- for example, a cohort should not be lost simply because of ability score damage to charisma or even to drain (assuming a relatively quick Restoration in the latter case).
As far as i heard/read, cohort level for attracting it is to recruit one or find a new cohort, he will gain experience your level divided by his, which seems pointless if he is a set level by your bonus.
It would be 10 divided by 5 = 2
When you gain 1000 experience, he would get 1000x2 = 2000.
But at no point can he gain more levels then yours -2
as the feat says - If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
The experience gain would mean he grows stronger in your service, his level would be set after you acquired him no matter the increase or decrease and only grown with experience points.
So the level 20 character with a leadership score of 7 would do his best to keep his level 18 cohort alive, instead of trying to acquire a new cohort of level 5.
On the other hand the beautiful sorcerer of max charisma, would always be able to seek out a new cohort of its given level, but as GM this might be a side quest of its own, to minimise the potential meta gaming of finding the next ‘magician of craft the items I need now’
If I were GM I would probably not allow enchantment bonuses to charisma to allow for greater cohort level (especially borrowing headbands to the dump stat barbarian and wizard)
And further the cohort is by GMs choice a still a NPC, whom he could easily say feels betrayed that the person he admires, tricked him into his service, and abandon the character.
And the cohort would do what seems most logical to his personality and affection with the party, should his owner pass away, he might see the quest as pointless and walk off or feel compelled to do everything in a attempt to resurrect the character.
The best way that I’ve seen PC death handled when the dead PC had leadership and was not revived, was for that player to continue forwards playing as the cohort who had become a full fledged member of the party by that point.
Cohorts, and anyone who counts as a Follower for that matter, are devoted and loyal to the PC, and will even continue serve the PC with action, song, or stories long after the PC's death. They would make every effort to resurrect him, and even if they're unsuccessful during their own lifetimes, they would create a cult/religion to pass down the knowledge for generations (who will still be figuring out ways to resurrect the PC).
There are movies that have plotlines like this, for example Apocalypse from X-men was buried alive in 3600BC and his "followers" resurrected that dude thousands of years later, or The Mummy has "anti-followers" attempting to make sure he can't be resurrected.
Btw, none of ^---- this is in the Rules, in fact the rules about this are pretty vague and open-ended. This is just my opinion of how cohorts/followers would act after a PC's death.
If the leadership score falls the cohort and some of the followers will probably leave. This should take a little time and be worked into the game. Depending on the nature of the characters involved it could be they start disagreeing with the character with leadership. Another option would be to have the cohort and other followers recruited by another character. The cohort could also decide that now is the time for him to go into the world and become a leader in his own right.
After the cohort and other followers leave they become normal NPC’s who may or may not have a good relationship with their former leader and his party. If they had been well treated they could still remain allies, but not automatically follow the orders of their old leader. If the relationship ended badly they may become rivals or even enemies. Chances are at least the cohort was written up and helped develop the story why waste such a character by just writing them off and having them leave.
If the player dies and does not come back the cohort could take over the non-adventuring aspects of the character. Returning the PC’s body and belonging to their family would be a logical start. If the PC had any kind of organization the cohort would likely remain part of that.
As far as i heard/read, cohort level for attracting it is to recruit one or find a new cohort, he will gain experience your level divided by his, which seems pointless if he is a set level by your bonus.
** spoiler omitted **
The experience gain would mean he grows stronger in your service, his level would be set after you acquired him no matter the increase or decrease and only grown with experience points.
So the level 20 character with a leadership score of 7 would do his best to keep his level 18 cohort alive, instead of trying to acquire a new cohort of level 5. On the other hand the beautiful sorcerer of max charisma, would always be able to seek out a new cohort of its given level, but as GM this might be a side quest of its own, to minimise the potential meta gaming of finding the next ‘magician of craft the items I need now’
The level of cohort you can recruit is also a maximum level limit that your cohort can reach, so an 18th level cohort is not possible. The limit is either the value given by the PC's Leadership score or the PC's level minus 2, whichever is less.
So in your examples, the level 20 character with a Leadership score of 7 has done some things seriously wrong, and his cohort will have stopped gaining levels a long time ago if he hasn't left entirely. You really have to foul up to have a Leadership score that low at 20th level.
Your sorcerer example is actually far more typical. The main drawback of changing cohorts is that you have to dismiss your old cohort and spend some time finding a new cohort with whom you have not established a relationship, so you are without a cohort for a bit and then have to work out the new arrangement.
Technically, a 20th(+) level cohort is allowed with the Noble Scion Feat. However, it ultimately doesn't matter how your leadership score changes as long as it doesn't go down. Your cohort won't level up while they are your cohort for as long as the max level doesn't allow it: they will be sat 1xp away from level up until they are permitted level up and gain xp again. It only matters when your score goes down to determine if they potentially leave as a cohort.
Technically, a 20th(+) level cohort is allowed with the Noble Scion Feat.
Where are you getting that idea? There is nothing in the text of that feat that does anything like that.
The Noble Scion prestige class, however, does increase the maximum level of a cohort relative to the PC (ultimately to the level of the PC, as I recall), but it doesn't do anything to the maximum cohort level of 17th level in the leadership table.
Oh derp, I meant PRC and just brain farted the feat of the same name.
But ultimately that's up to interpretation, as it doesn't clarify if its just removing the -2 level cap, or all caps on the cohort.
I’m tired, i’ll leave this here and ask if anyone can point me to the spot the feat explicitly says the cohorts level is not allow to raise above leadership score after recruiting him.
I might believe this is an old 3.5 dnd rule of the feat, which have been removed.
It’s not an animal companion, and still with the GM able to step in and take “control” of if he means the person wouldn’t do said task.
If the cohort had a set level, the experience calculation would be pointless and he is at least 2 levels behind, which already let’s him fill up his experience bar before the character.
Further wouldn’t it just be strange if you took on a headband of +6 cha then cohort can suddenly could gain 2 levels, then the first time you end up with charisma drain, he leaves with 1/3 of your army, cause you suddenly smell bad.
Leadership Modifiers: Several factors can affect your Leadership score, causing it to vary from the base score (character level + Cha modifier). Your reputation (from the point of view of the cohort or follower you are trying to attract) raises or lowers your Leadership score:
Leader’s Reputation Modifier
Great renown +2
Fairness and generosity +1
Special power +1
Failure –1
Aloofness –1
Cruelty –2
Other modifiers may apply when you try to attract a cohort, as listed below.
The Leader… Modifier
Has a familiar, special mount, or animal companion –2
Recruits a cohort of a different alignment –1
Caused the death of a cohort –2*
* Cumulative per cohort killed.
Followers have different priorities from cohorts. When you try to attract a follower, use the following modifiers.
The Leader… Modifier
Has a stronghold, base of operations, guildhouse, etc. +2
Moves around a lot –1
Caused the death of other followers –1
Leadership Score: Your base Leadership score equals your level plus your Charisma modifier. In order to take into account negative Charisma modifiers, this table allows for very low Leadership scores, but you must still be 7th level or higher in order to gain the Leadership feat. Outside factors can affect your Leadership score, as detailed above.
Table: Leadership
Leadership Score Number of Followers by Level
Cohort Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1 or lower — — — — — — —
2 1st — — — — — —
3 2nd — — — — — —
4 3rd — — — — — —
5. 3rd — — — — — —
6. 4th — — — — — —
7. 5th — — — — — —
8. 5th — — — — — —
9. 6th — — — — — —
10. 7th 5 — — — — —
11. 7th 6 — — — — —
12. 8th 8 — — — — —
13. 9th 10 1 — — — —
14. 10th 15 1 — — — —
15. 10th 20 2 1 — — —
16. 11th 25 2 1 — — —
17. 12th 30 3 1 1 — —
18. 12th 35 3 1 1 — —
19. 13th 40 4 2 1 1 —
20. 14th 50 5 3 2 1 —
21. 15th 60 6 3 2 1 1
22. 15th 75 7 4 2 2 1
23. 16th 90 9 5 3 2 1
24. 17th 110 11 6 3 2 1
25 or higher 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level (see Creating NPCs). A cohort can be of any race or class. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to your alignment on either the law/chaos or good/evil axis, and you take a –1 penalty to your Leadership score if you recruit a cohort of an alignment different from your own.
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP. Instead, divide the cohort’s level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
Number of Followers by Level: You can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re usually 5 or more levels behind you, they’re rarely effective in combat.
Followers don’t earn experience and thus don’t gain levels. When you gain a new level, consult Table: Leadership to determine if you acquire more followers, some of whom may be higher level than the existing followers. Don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.
The leadership score tables was don on a phone, sorry if it’s messed up
i misunderstood the experience calculation, in a earlier comment, here’s a discussion about the math
reddit
It says it in the feat itself that the cohort can't (normally) come to 1 or less levels than the owner of the cohort.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
Thanks everyone. Like simulacrum, these kind of unsupported structures requires a lot of house rules.
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Thanks everyone. Like simulacrum, these kind of unsupported structures requires a lot of house rules.
Too many variables to make a concise rule. Even the setting of your campaign will change the parameters.
What counts as "Fairness and generosity" and "Cruelty" will change if you are playing a heroic campaign or a gritty reality campaign.