Raise a shield ended at start of the turn

[Kazumalice]

Hello there ^^

I'm confused by something. "Your shield remains raised until the start of your next turn."

That mean you can't just stay your shield ahead, that's weird and make non sence but ok, that's a rule. My problem is a rule problem.

This way, i can play a sadic monster (and a sadic GM) that Ready action to prepare a Strike for the moment that my player lower his shield (for no reason cause he want to raise again) and then Reaction for make an attack when my player have no AC bonus and can't Shield block ...

And my players can do the same versus my monsters like Templars/Hellknight characters ?

Ok, it means they spend 2 actions and 1 reaction, that's ... not fairly but ok, it's "fine". My problem is ... wtf is the realism in this ? Why he have to lower the shield in any way ? :s

Also, that mean when you Take cover under a tower shield, you loose the shield bonus and the cover at start of turn ? So you have to Raise a shied AND Take cover each turn to be safe, even you don't move ? :s

[Aw3som3-117]

To your point, that's an inefficient use of the player or monster's action economy, so I don't see the problem. Not only does it waste an extra action, which is already a one-to-one action economy relationship to raising a shield, but it also uses their reaction, which can be a pretty big deal depending on what else they can use that reaction for.

And tackling why it has to lower in the first place. Well, if it didn't lower at all, then it'd be OP. That's not even an opinion, it's just flat out how the numbers work out. A single action to essentially enter a stance with a +2 AC and no restrictions would be insane even without things like shield block. So, when should it drop, then? Well, the other option is at the end of the player's next turn, but then if you do something during your next turn that trigger's an enemy's reaction to attack you, such as moving while next to someone with an attack of opportunity, then your shield is raised for that as well. It seems the Devs didn't want that (which is something I agree with), so they made it stop at the start of your turn. If you want it to be in effect again during your next turn then you should perhaps start that turn by raising your shield, then it's only down for a moment and only really can be exploited in the exact scenario you set up, which wastes action economy for the enemy, which is already a huge bonus for the shield user.

Tower shields are very situational, yes... I don't see the problem. If you don't want to use them, then you don't have to. I have yet to see someone use a tower shield, but that doesn't mean it's a problem that that option is in the game, and I'm sure there's times in which having one would make sense.

[WatersLethe]

Everything Aw3some3-117 said and also if a player wanted to "keep their shield raised" I would definitely allow them to do so by using their first action each round to raise a shield, thereby avoiding gaps such as described in the OP and preventing the need to take cover again with a Tower Shield.

Reactive Block would also work without such GM fiat though.

[breithauptclan]

Game Mechanics:

Having the shield bonus drop at the beginning of your turn and having to use Raise Shield again is important for the mechanics of how shields work.

Ready action has to be triggered off of something that the target does that the character can observe and react to. The shield bonus going away at the start of the turn doesn't qualify. So if the first thing that the target does is Raise Shield, then there is no gap there where the shield is not raised that the Ready reaction can exploit.

Flavor and description:

Keeping your shield in the way of incoming attacks is something that you have to constantly adjust to. An enemy is going to adapt to where you have your shield at, and you have to spend some time and thought to adapt your own tactics in response. Also you have to recover your positioning and balance after making an attack or doing other actions in preparation for attacks that the enemy are going to be making on you. Again, that takes time and thought to do.

[Ascalaphus]

You have to spend an action each round to Raise the shield, because shields are really really good and that can't come for free.

But you don't have to imagine that as the shield bobbing up and down. You can also imagine it as continuous effort, turn after turn, to keep the shield raised.

Now I don't agree with breithauptclan 100% on a technical level - I don't think Ready is restricted to "active" triggering events. But I wouldn't allow this ready anyway. In each edition figuring out which things were reasonable triggers for ready actions has always had a measure of GM choice in it, there are always weird corner cases that the book can't cover. And this is one of them. Like I said before, you can imagine a raised shield as something that's being kept up, instead of something that goes up and down. Since we've already decided that we don't particularly want this weird ready action style of play in our game, we just decide that in this corner case, No, you cannot ready an attack for that.

[Ventnor]

The way to play around that strategy would be for the PC to ready an action to raise their shield when an enemy attacked them, wouldn’t it?

[Staffan Johansson]

The problem isn't really the mechanics, but the nomenclature. "Raise a shield" makes it sound like your shield is bobbing up and down, but it's more that actively defending with the shield takes a certain amount of effort which is reflected in costing an action.

[breithauptclan]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Now I don't agree with breithauptclan 100% on a technical level - I don't think Ready is restricted to "active" triggering events. But I wouldn't allow this ready anyway.

Curious on this. There are plenty of pre-built reactions that have triggers that are game mechanics. Mage Hunter can trigger off of purely concentrate action spellcasting. Various luck feats let you invoke the reaction on failing a saving throw roll. Things like that.

However, Ready...

Ready wrote:

the trigger must be something that happens in the game world and is observable by the character rather than a rules concept that doesn’t exist in world.

...is more limited.

So something has to change. Something observable to the character using Ready. And generally the only way that something changes is when action is taken.

A trigger of 'when the duration of this Wall of Fire spell expires and the fire goes away' would work*. Is that what you are meaning by a non 'active' trigger?

* I think Delay would be a better choice for this instead of Ready.

[Ascalaphus]

I think you just proved my (intended main) point: what constitutes a good trigger is always going to require GM judgement. There are always going to be reasonable things to use as trigger that fall just on the outside of the line, and unreasonable things just within.

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As a side note, spending two actions to set up a Ready to strike when someone's turn has just started and their shield is no longer up is pretty bad tactics. You're spending two actions to get the right to spend your reaction to make an attack. It's almost always better to just make two attacks because one attack without MAP and one with still has better odds of hitting than one attack without MAP and without shield - and you get to keep your reaction, for maybe an AoO without MAP...