The Wall of Ice spell creates an Object (a solid wall 1 inch thick per CL). Unless you can provide a rule that says SR allows you to walk through Objects that created by a spell, then you're just making things up that don't exist.
"It does what it says, and it says what it does."
There would need to be a specific rule enumerated in the Wall of Ice spell description itself that would allow someone who passes an SR check to walk through the wall as if it wasn't an Object. And since that doesn't exist, you're out of luck.
I can provide a rule that says spell resistance prevents the spell from effecting me. Can you provide a more specific rule saying otherwise?The Wall of Ice spell creates an Object (a solid wall 1 inch thick per CL). Unless you can provide a rule that says SR allows you to walk through Objects that created by a spell, then you're just making things up that don't exist.
"It does what it says, and it says what it does."
There would need to be a specific rule enumerated in the Wall of Ice spell description itself that would allow someone who passes an SR check to walk through the wall as if it wasn't an Object. And since that doesn't exist, you're out of luck.
Yes.
The spell resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
You need a specific rule in the spell saying that SR would protect you against the ongoing effect, such as the physical Wall of Ice as a created Object.
Spell Resistance lets you be hit by a javelin of ice (from Holy Ice) and not be harmed.
Spell Resistance allows a tiny creature to pass through a Wind Wall and not be blown away. (Unless we're applying the "In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place" rule here?)
Spell Resistance lets you stand next to a fireball that is setting the room on fire and somehow not get burned.
The laws of physics do not apply to magic effects interacting with spell immunities.
Allowing a magic-immune golem to walk through a wall of magic ice breaks nothing, as far as I can tell.
That wouldn't apply, since you don't target a creature with wall of ice.
You're just in flat out denial now.
The spell resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell,
A Wall of Ice is an Object created by a spell and it has a duration of 1min/lvl (ergo not Instantaneous), so if you encounter it AFTER it was cast, then it's an ONGOING effect or a spell that is ALREADY IN PLACE. And therefore, NOT WHEN A RESISTANT CREATURE ENCOUNTERS A SPELL THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE becomes a satisfied condition.
Wall Spells that create physical barriers are almost always SR: No because its a spell that creates an Object and is "Already In Place". Only Wall of Ice gains "SR: Yes" as a specific rule because the sections of the Wall of Ice cause damage when you try to breach them.
A wall of ice is preventing passage. That's acting on.Because SR doesn't matter until something is 'acting upon' that SR.
A wall of fire is attempting to harm.
A wind wall is attempting to push.
A wall of ice is just standing there.
All physical Wall spells, such as Wall of Iron, Stone, or Force, are preventing passage, and they are SR: No.
You're still creating a solid wall, whether its Conjuration or Evocation is irrelevant.
You're still creating a solid wall, whether its Conjuration or Evocation is irrelevant.Let me ask a different question, if Wall of Force was SR: Yes, how do you think SR would interact with that?
It wouldn't. Wall of Force causes no damage nor attempts to invade one's mind/body with conditions. But if it did, SR would apply to those conditions/damage only.
That's too much digging. I'm not going to sift through 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, and 5E forums, FAQ's, and Errata. I quoted the guy who said this from the 5E forums, and I provided a link in that post to where he said it if you're that interested.
And we have a General Rule that says Spells Already in Place (i.e. Wall Spells that are physical barriers and do not cause damage/conditions) do not get SR checks. You would need a Specific Rule in that particular Wall Spell saying "if SR fails, then you can walk through the wall as if it wasn't there".
So you posted a claim that you don't know the legitimacy of and you aren't going to back up when questioned about it. I feel like we're done here.
I do know it's legit because this is how Wall spells have always worked since day 1. It's your onus to disprove it, not mine. If you want 20 years worth of forums, FAQ's, and Errata sifted through, then that's your burden, not mine.
I want you to look at this rule:
The spell resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
I want you to notice the pattern of how this rule is put into practice with all Wall spells that create Physical Barriers and do not cause any damage or conditions.
Wall of Force
School evocation [force]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Subdomain isolation 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered quartz)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw none;DESCRIPTION
A wall of force creates an invisible wall of pure force. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of force is immune to dispel magic, although a mage’s disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of force can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a wall of force.
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
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Wall of Iron
School conjuration (creation); Level magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, summoner 5, unchained summoner 6; Domain artifice 7; Subdomain metal 6; Elemental School earth 6, metal 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a small iron sheet plus gold dust worth 50 gp)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect iron wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text;DESCRIPTION
You cause a flat, vertical iron wall to spring into being. The wall inserts itself into any surrounding nonliving material if its area is sufficient to do so. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object. It must always be a flat plane, though you can shape its edges to fit the available space.
A wall of iron is 1 inch thick per four caster levels. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 25 + 2 per inch of thickness.
If you desire, the wall can be created vertically resting on a flat surface but not attached to the surface, so that it can be tipped over to fall on and crush creatures beneath it. The wall is 50% likely to tip in either direction if left unpushed. Creatures can push the wall in one direction rather than letting it fall randomly. A creature must make a DC 40 Strength check to push the wall over. Creatures with room to flee the falling wall may do so by making successful Reflex saves. Any Large or smaller creature that fails takes 10d6 points of damage while fleeing from the wall. The wall cannot crush Huge and larger creatures.
Like any iron wall, this wall is subject to rust, perforation, and other natural phenomena. Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold.
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Wall of Stone
School conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 6, magus 5, shaman 6, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4, unchained summoner 5; Domain earth 5; Elemental School earth 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a small block of granite)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text;DESCRIPTION
This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell’s area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenelations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.
Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
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Wall of Earth
School conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric 5, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a small clay or stone brick)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels)
Area earthen wall whose area is up to on 5‑ft. square/2 levels (S)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text;DESCRIPTION
This spell creates a earthen barrier that merges into adjoining dirt, soil, or rock surfaces. A wall of earth is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5‑foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of earth in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone or earth, and it’s entire length must be supported by a firm foundation. It can be used as a ramp, for example, but not to bridge a chasm (unless the wall of earth can fill the entire chasm). The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenelations, battlements, and so forth, though this level of detail reduces the spell’s area by half.
Like any other earth wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and digging. Each 5‑foot square of the wall has hardness 0 and 10 hit points per inch of thickness. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 10 + 2 per inch of thickness.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of earth, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
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Noticing a pattern? These Wall spells all cause no damage and cause no conditions, and they create physical barriers that you cannot cross without breaching.
Now for a curve ball.
Wall of Fire
School evocation [fire]; Level bloodrager 4, druid 5, magus 4, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, unchained summoner 4; Domain fire 4; Elemental School fire 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a piece of phosphor)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none;DESCRIPTION
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.
If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. If any 5-foot length of wall takes 20 points or more of cold damage in 1 round, that length goes away. (Do not divide cold damage by 2, as normal for objects.)
Wall of fire can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent wall of fire that is extinguished by cold damage becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then reforms at normal strength.
=====================================================
Wall of Blindness/Deafness
School necromancy; Level bard 4, cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect translucent wall 20 ft. long/level or a translucent ring with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fort negates;DESCRIPTION
You create a translucent wall of energy, within which can be seen indistinct images of faces with their eyes or ears sewn shut. When you create the wall, decide whether it blinds or deafens. Any creature that passes through the wall must save or become permanently blinded or deafened (as blindness/deafness).
The wall must be vertical and either rectangular or a ring. It need not touch the ground. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature when it is cast, the spell fails.
=====================================================
Energy Wall
Discipline Metacreativity (Creation) [see text]; Level Psion/Wilder 3
MANIFESTING
Display Auditory
Manifesting Time 1 standard actionEFFECT
Range Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Area An opaque sheet of energy up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of energy with a radius of up to 5 ft./2 levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration Concentration + 1 round/ level
Saving Throw Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text;
Power Points 5DESCRIPTION
You create an immobile sheet of energy of your active energy type (cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) formed out of unstable ectoplasm. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of energy, dealing 2d6 points of damage to creatures and objects within 10 feet and 1d6 points of damage to those beyond 10 feet but within 20 feet. In addition, anyone passing though the energy wall takes 2d6 points of damage +1 point per manifester level (maximum +20).
If you manifest the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
If you manifest this power in the form of a ring of energy, you choose whether the waves of energy radiate inward or outward from the ring.
Cold A sheet of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold wall is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity Manifesting a sheet of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire A sheet of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic A sheet of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.
Special A kineticist does not need to select an energy type for this power when he gains psionic focus. He may choose the type of damage at the time the power is manifested.
=====================================================
So now let's look at Wall of Ice.
Wall of Ice
School evocation [cold]; Level bloodrager 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, unchained summoner 4; Bloodline boreal 4; Elemental School water 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of quartz or rock crystal)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect anchored plane of ice, up to one 10-ft. square/level, or hemisphere of ice with a radius of up to 3 ft. + 1 ft./level
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text;DESCRIPTION
This spell creates an anchored plane of ice or a hemisphere of ice, depending on the version selected. A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. Fire can melt a wall of ice, and it deals full damage to the wall (instead of the normal half damage taken by objects). Suddenly melting a wall of ice creates a great cloud of steamy fog that lasts for 10 minutes.
Ice Plane: A sheet of strong, hard ice appears. The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level. It covers up to a 10-foot-square area per caster level (so a 10th-level wizard can create a wall of ice 100 feet long and 10 feet high, a wall 50 feet long and 20 feet high, or any other combination of length and height that does not exceed 1,000 square feet). The plane can be oriented in any fashion as long as it is anchored. A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor, while a horizontal or slanting wall must be anchored on two opposite sides.
Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 15 + caster level.
Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid air remains. Any creature stepping through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of cold damage + 1 point per caster level (no save).
Hemisphere: The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach.
=====================================================
Based on the previous 7 spells, there is an obvious pattern to how the aforementioned rule of "In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place" is supposed to work.
Spell Resistance does not let you overcome Physical Barriers because they're Objects that are Created by the Spell itself, and they're considered spells that are Already In Place. Spell Resistance DOES apply when a Wall Spell acts upon them in some way, such as causing damage or conditions.
This is how it's always worked in every iteration of the game since its creation. It's your Onus to disprove this.
I missed a bit here; I'll just reply to a few of the more important points brought up, and the one comment directly replying to mine.
Spell Resistance lets you be hit by a javelin of ice (from Holy Ice) and not be harmed.
Spell Resistance allows a tiny creature to pass through a Wind Wall and not be blown away. (Unless we're applying the "In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place" rule here?)
Spell Resistance lets you stand next to a fireball that is setting the room on fire and somehow not get burned.The laws of physics do not apply to magic effects interacting with spell immunities.
Allowing a magic-immune golem to walk through a wall of magic ice breaks nothing, as far as I can tell.
Exactly! I'm not sure why Wall of Ice's interaction with spell resistance seems to be such a stumbling block in particular, given the wide variety of effects spell resistance unquestionably lets you totally ignore.
As a side note, the "In many cases" text wouldn't apply to a tiny creature trying to traverse a Wind Wall because the effect isn't targeted, and the spell tells you "Spell Resistance yes".
I think this guy sums it up nicely. Magic Immunity is immune to any spell that has "SR: yes". D&D 5E forums talking about this exact same thing
...
What you're suggesting has been brought up every edition of D&D and thusly shot down. It's not how the game was ever supposed to be played, and suggesting that Pathfinder is any different in this respect is **channels Draco Malfoy pronouncing the P in Potter** Positively PrePosterous.
Right, and your authoritative proof of that is.... some other random forum post? Nice.
The meat of AtomicPope's post doesn't apply to the current debate either; we're not debating whether ""immunity to magic" means "immunity to Wall Spells"". That's a straw man, as ShadowcatX pointed out. Even past that, the reasoning given in that post applies only to 5ed, not to any of the 3.X/PF systems. In 3.X/PF, not only is there nothing preventing something described as an object from also being an ongoing spell effect, as is the case with the ice wall created by Wall of Ice, but the definition of immunity is either substantially different or non-existent.
Unless you can provide a rule that says SR allows you to walk through Objects that created by a spell, then you're just making things up that don't exist.
Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have.
The rule "does what it says, and it says what it does." You don't get to ignore only part of a spell's effects, or pretend that because an effect is described in terms of an object it's not also an ongoing spell effect resulting from an ongoing spell.
I do know it's legit because this is how Wall spells have always worked since day 1. It's your onus to disprove it, not mine. If you want 20 years worth of forums, FAQ's, and Errata sifted through, then that's your burden, not mine.
...That's not how this works. You need to prove your own point. Given your repeated refusal to do that, I can only assume your point is meritless.
I want you to look at this rule:
The spell resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
Y'know, I addressed this way back in the thread. If you want this passage to apply to Wall of Ice, you have to accept that means that spell resistance doesn't apply to Wall of Ice at all - Wall of Ice has no targeted effects. All of its effects are the result of encountering "a spell that is already in place", and spell resistance either applies or doesn't apply to all of the spell's effects equally.
Luckily, we have the most specific rule possible to tell us that this rules section doesn't apply to Wall of Ice: Wall of Ice's description says "Spell Resistance yes".
Wall of Ice couldn't be clearer that it's not one of those "many cases".
... [List of wall spells] ...
So, you're using a bunch of SR no spells, most of which are instantaneous conjuration effects (which are explicitly called out as acting differently), to show that an SR yes evocation spell with a duration can't be resisted with SR? You sure you don't want to reexamine that logic?
Just do what the spell tells you to do - apply spell resistance.
It's not a bunch of SR No spells, its a cross-examination of "SR: Yes Wall Spells that have No Physical Barriers but cause Damage/Conditions" vs. "SR: No Wall Spells that have Physical Barriers but cause No damage/conditions".
It proves that physical barriers created by Wall Spells are "Objects" and are therefore SR: No; and the damage/conditions from Wall spells are SR: Yes.
And there's Conjuration, Necromancy, Evocation, and Psionic walls, not just Conjuration.
And you would know that if you actually read it.
It's not a bunch of SR No spells, its a cross-examination of "SR: Yes Wall Spells that have No Physical Barriers but cause Damage/Conditions" vs. "SR: No Wall Spells that have Physical Barriers but cause No damage/conditions".
It proves that physical barriers created by Wall Spells are "Objects" and are therefore SR: No; and the damage/conditions from Wall spells are SR: Yes.
And you would know that if you actually read it.
It doesn't prove that at all. There's no rule saying that spell effects described in terms of physical barriers, physical effects, or objects are exempt from spell resistance, and trying to distill such a rule by comparing a small number spells while ignoring the significant differences between those spells is sophistry at best. There wasn't even a rule like that back in 3.X.
Spell resistance doesn't apply to "SR no" spells because the rules say that's how SR works. Even ignoring that, SR wouldn't apply to the objects produced by the effects of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells because the rules for instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells tell you that when those spell effects produce objects they are "merely assembled through magic". The Wall spells in general are not, at any point, called out as being governed by a different set of rules than those which apply to all other spells.
Besides, you ignored some wall spells that don't seem to support your argument. Wall of Ectoplasm, Wall of Bone, Wall of Clockwork, Blade Barrier, and Wind Wall all produce seemingly physical effects and yet allow spell resistance. The first three of those five are even described in terms of objects.
*washes hands* alright, I've had enough of this idiocy. Ryze out.Thank you for your contribution. Just like Wall of Fire would still block line of sight for creatures with Spell Resistance, it follows that Wall of Ice would still block passage (and act like a solid sheet of ice) to creatures with Spell Resistance. Only the damaging / condition-inducing features are cancelled by Spell Resistance.
Thank you for your replies everyone!
You're welcome, glad to help.
All these examples were intended to show was that Ryze Kuja's "pattern" wasn't really as significant as it was made out to be, and thus doesn't hold much explanatory power, because Wall of Ice isn't an isolated case of an "SR yes" spell that also has a physical or object-like effect.
That was also intended to be a side comment in my larger argument.
Wall of bone says it acts exactly like wall of stone which doesn't allow SR.
Wall of bone allows SR to not be affected by the grappling aspect because it's 'acting upon' a person. The wall is still there and blocks your path and is 'already in place' so SR doesn't apply.
"The wall of bone works identically to wall of stone except as noted above and in this spell description."
The description says "Spell Resistance yes; see text" - the "see text" seems to refer to the sentence quoted above, as spell resistance applying is one of the differences noted. The spell's description doesn't say that spell resistance applies to only part of the spell.
Besides, the wall is the thing doing the grappling. It's all the same object - how does it make sense to ignore the wall in one context after successfully resisting the spell, but not in others?
Wall of ectoplasm is basically identical to wall of ice. SR applies to the mind affecting for going near it (acting upon). You can't walk through is because it's 'already in place' and SR doesn't apply.
It was in the list because of those similarities. Wall of Ectoplasm doesn't target either, so applying that rule would just mean that SR doesn't apply at all.
Wall of clockwork doesn't prevent you from walking through it, but if you do attempt to do so, it 'acts upon' you with damage, and SR applies.
Blade barrier is the same as wall of clockwork, neither block passage.
Both of these are in this list because they have some physical or object-like effect and allow spell resistance. In the first case the wall has attributes like hardness and HP, and in the second case it's called out as being composed of "blades of pure force". Neither were intended to be examples of walls that block passage.
Wind wall has no physical barrier to impede movement.
It is a physical effect that allows spell resistance (and, yes, I'm counting the wind as a physical effect); that's what I was looking for.
Laegrim's interpretation is too unwieldy and causes too many problems to function the way he's implying.
Take Campfire Wall.
In general, not really. I'll admit Campfire Wall is a bit unwieldy, but no more so than a Shadow spell.
Typical usage of SR against a spell would strongly imply that SR would only be checked when a creature passes into the barrier (when it would take 1d6 fire damage and glow for 1d6 minutes). Most people would not check for passing out of it (which expressly states it causes no penalties or effects) or merely standing within the radius of an effect of the spell's actual effect (that being that it's a wall of fire that sheds illumination). A creature with SR passes in, SR fails, it takes no damage and doesn't glow, the barrier still exists, still blocks line of sight and still illuminates the area as a torch. That would normally be the end of it.
Yeah, this spell is a bit unwieldy under my interpretation, mostly just because of the magical illumination. On the other hand, if a spell effect really doesn't interact with the resistant creature in any way, such as (discounting the illumination) when a creature passes from the inside to the outside of the sphere, I am not saying to make a check.
On the whole this doesn't seem like a great spell to use if you've got a party member with spell resistance, unless it's the party member with spell resistance casting the spell. It's just that double edged sword at work again.
Using Laegrim's interpretation, a creature with SR standing inside the barrier or outside of it within the illumination radius causes an immediate SR check because they are within the effect. The effect, by his interpretation, being the torch-level illumination provided by the opaque barrier of firelight which seemingly emanates on both sides of the barrier, inside and outside (and is presumably in addition to any illumination shed by the campfire within the barrier).
Yes, this is consistent with what I've said.
If the spell fails against the SR, now that creature no longer has his vision blocked by the barrier (which blocks line of sight) and should also no longer benefit from receiving the total concealment provided by the spell's effect. This means that the creature could see through the barrier (which would be a really awesome strategy, similar to my (Leomund's) tiny hut strategies), but would also mean that he technically couldn't see outside the barrier (assuming it was dark out there), since the barrier would block line of effect from the campfire, thus not illuminating beyond it (the campfire didn't have SR to allow its light to go through) and the creature with SR can't see the illumination from the actual campfire barrier because that is supposedly a spell effect (as opposed to just a property of something created by the spell).
By his interpretation, that creature also can't be benefiting from the total concealment granted by the campfire barrier. So, now the GM has to determine what that creature can see (possibly nothing if it's dark out there) and also, what creatures on the outside without SR can see looking in. They see a barrier of firelight from the spell, they see an area illuminated around it as a torch, and they can't see anyone inside because it blocks line of sight... except, the creature with SR (since he obviously cannot be receiving the total concealment benefit) ... so they see an immobile opaque barrier... but they see the creature inside and have no apparent penalty to attack them... because granting total concealment is part of the spell's effect which the creature can't have (they still can't see any of its allies in there with him).
This is only party consistent though. Spell resistance has always been adjudicated on an individual basis for effect spells, and one creature resisting a spell doesn't let other creatures resist the spell - so a creature would continue to benefit from concealment provided by the spell so long as the other creatures it is concealed from haven't resisted the spell. Concealment cares about whether the attacker can see you, not whether you can see the attacker.
I agree that the campfire doesn't illuminate past the barrier; low-light and darkvision, depending on ambient conditions, solve this issue. Figuring out what creatures can see in what lighting conditions has always been a pain as a GM, but it's not unusual.
You'd have the same situation with keeping track of how each creature treats the spell effect with a Shadow Evocation (Campfire Wall), so it's not like this situation is unprecedented.
Also, using his interpretation, spells like magic weapon or greater magic weapon (SR: Yes) fail to work for creatures with SR.
This is not correct.
Even though the spell is cast on an object, with his interpretation, just touching and coming in contact with the spell causes a check, which means if the SR check fails... he gets no benefit from the spell on the weapon. Even if we said that touching the weapon wasn't affecting the creature... swinging or firing or otherwise using it adds an enhancement bonus to the creature's attack rolls! That's clearly affecting the creature with a spell's effect (!) ... and as such, despite the common, easier to adjudicate and accepted understanding that SR is only checked when it specifically would affect a creature, now those spells never work unless that SR creature continually spends a standard action voluntarily lowering its SR every round (which kind of negates being able to attack). Despite being (object) and (harmless), which means a creature does not need to make a saving throw unless desired, Spell Resistance clearly states that it still must be voluntarily lowered by the creature for these spells to work.
Magic weapon affects the object, and by saying "Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)" the spell resistance entry in the spell's description is clear that spell resistance applies only for the object targeted.
Half my point in this thread is that we can't ignore what the rules actually say - why would I ignore the entry saying that spell resistance applies only to the object?
Even if that weren't the case, there's still the fact that spell resistance never interferes with your own spells or abilities.
Most GMs and games will rule that this falls under merely encountering an already ongoing spell and not actually being targeted or impacted by it, or that the SR creature clearly isn't the target, only benefiting from a property granted to an object by the spell, but his interpretation leaves no such chance for this. The spells just don't do anything for the creature.
As noted above, Magic Weapon works just fine with my interpretation. On the other hand, yeah, having spell resistance makes it difficult to benefit from many harmless or ongoing spells. Spell resistance has always worked that way, and, in many cases, is not a wholly positive thing for a player to have.
Also, we can tell that SR is intended to only be checked when a spell has a definitive effect by looking at other spells with SR: Yes that are identical to other spells that are SR: No except for the parts that 'go to work' on the creature with SR.
Take sanctuary (SR: NO) and miserable pity (SR: YES).
They are exactly the same spell... but one allows SR. When should a GM determine that SR is called for? When the spell would affect the creature with SR in a way that 'goes to work on its mind or body'. In this case, when it causes the creature to feel emotions or pity. Not when it decides that it can't attack the creature at all (though these actually are determined at the same time in this case). The fact that one spell does and one spell doesn't make it clear that there is a differentiation and that merely being 'affected' by the effect of a spell (ie. not being able to attack a target that's affected by the spell or perceive or be affected by a property of the spell's effect) is not enough to trigger an SR check in most cases.
I think you're right that was the rationale used between these spells, but I don't think that rationale is used consistently through the texts - for example, 'can't attack' in the context of Forbid Action does check for spell resistance. In most contexts a spell that forces a will save is counted as affecting the creature that must make the save. Sanctuary, on its own, is unusual.
In other cases, the only option for when to apply spell resistance is when "merely being 'affected'"; Wind Wall and Resilient Sphere, for example.
I don't expect the authors to have a unified vision for how the rules work, and, for spell resistance, that's doubly true. In the 3.X spell resistance rules Web gets used as an example of when spell resistance does apply. If we try to guess at which effects are major enough to allow spell resistance, and which aren't, we're inevitably going to end up with a mess of inconsistent interpretations and unintentional side effects. Instead we should just look to the SR line, and, if it says yes, then SR applies to spell effects. If there's qualifications to that line, follow those qualifications.
Spell Resistance does not let a creature ignore the wall of ice created by a wall of ice spell. It only applies to the part of the spell (and is only checked when) the spell would damage or otherwise actively affect the creature. Merely being ice, solid, glowing, smelly, or cold (not dealing cold damage) is not sufficient, nor would it remove these properties or sensations from the perception or reality of the creature.
People keep saying this, but the rules clearly don't support it. The "Successful Spell Resistance" section is clear that all spell effects are ignored when a spell is resisted. Even the bit about "already in place" spells, regardless of your opinion about when that should be applied, doesn't suggest divvying up a spell's effects into those resisted and those not.
Lets set aside, for a moment, whether just contact is enough to trigger a spell resistance check. Instead of Wall of Ice we can look at Holy Ice (Holy Ice Wall).
Say an evil outsider with spell resistance touches a Holy Ice Wall: we should agree that, in this case, the spell clearly goes to work on the creature. Right? Holy Ice allows for a spell resistance check, so what happens when the creature resists the spell? Well, the rules say that the creature will "ignore any effect the spell might have".
The Holy Ice Wall itself is one such effect. It's a spell effect by plain language, in this case literally listed in the Effect line. We don't get to choose not to ignore it.
Alright, I'm back in. I went through every Wall spell that I could find. I also went through every SR rule I could find.
If I left any Relevant SR Rule or any Wall Spell out of this analysis, I didn't do this on purpose, I just missed it. But I was pretty thorough, I don't think I missed anything. Bring it up in the posts that follow, and we'll discuss it. Civilly. No more name-calling or insinuations of stupidity or insinuations of lacking reading skills, agreed? If so, read on and comment respectfully.
I respectfully apologize to Laegrim for name-calling and insinuations, it was disrespectful and uncalled for.
Relevant Rules:
Magic
The spell resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does.
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.
Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.
Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.
Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.
Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.
Successful Spell Resistance
Spell resistance prevents a spell or a spell-like ability from affecting or harming the resistant creature, but it never removes a magical effect from another creature or negates a spell’s effect on another creature. Spell resistance prevents a spell from disrupting another spell.
Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have. The magic continues to affect others normally.
So, with these rules in mind, we go to the List of Wall Spells. They're divided into 5 categories:
1) Wall Spells that create Physical Barriers, Cause No Damage/Condition, and SR: No
2) Wall Spells that create No Physical Barrier, Cause Damage/Conditions, and SR: Yes
3) Wall Spells that create Physical Barriers, Cause Damage/Conditions, and SR: Yes
4) Wall Spells that Cause Conditions and are SR: No because they Fool the Senses
5) Wall Spells that break the rules as Special Cases
For definition of "Physical Barrier", I'm considering any Wall that prevents automatic or uninhibited movement through it, such as being forced to cause damage to breach, or a Strength Check to push through it. For definition of "No Physical Barrier", I'm considering any Wall that allows automatic or uninhibited movement through it without having to cause damage to breach, or a Strength check to push through it. <---- These are not Rules, this is my own personal definition/opinion of Physical Barrier vs. No Physical Barrier, so feel free to agree or disagree with this.
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Wall of StoneSchool conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 6, magus 5, shaman 6, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4, unchained summoner 5; Domain earth 5; Elemental School earth 5
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance noWall of Force
School evocation [force]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Subdomain isolation 6
Duration 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noWall of Iron
School conjuration (creation); Level magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, summoner 5, unchained summoner 6; Domain artifice 7; Subdomain metal 6; Elemental School earth 6, metal 6
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance noWall of Earth
School conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric 5, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 3
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance noFlesh Wall
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 6, shaman 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, spiritualist 5, summoner 5, witch 6
Duration concentration + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
These are all physical barriers that do not act upon anyone, and are therefore SR: no. Flesh Wall does cause damage, but it's treated as a wall of Summoned Creatures because it Summons Zombies from the wall. Summoned Creatures are SR: No.
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Wall of Clockwork
School conjuration (creation); Level cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesPrismatic Wall
School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 8; Subdomain isolation 8
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance see text <---- The answer is Yes, except its an individual SR Check vs. all individual 7 colors, so 7 SR checks totalWall of Silver
School abjuration [good]; Level bard 5, cleric 6, inquisitor 5, sorcerer/wizard 6
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yesWall of Fire
School evocation [fire]; Level bloodrager 4, druid 5, magus 4, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, unchained summoner 4; Domain fire 4; Elemental School fire 4
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesWall of Blindness/Deafness
School necromancy; Level bard 4, cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fort negates; Spell Resistance yesWind Wall
School evocation [air]; Level bloodrager 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, magus 3, ranger 2, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 2, unchained summoner 3; Domain air 2; Elemental School air 3, wood 3
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance yes <---- Causes harmful movementBlade Barrier
School evocation [force]; Level cleric/oracle 6, inquisitor 6; Domain good 6, war 6
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesWall of Light
School evocation [light]; Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial, see text; Spell Resistance yesWall of Sound
School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 4, bloodrager 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 5
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesWall of Brine (Merfolk)
School conjuration (creation) [water]; Level druid 4, magus 4, ranger 3, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance yes <---- Causes harmful movement
These are all non-physical barriers that do act upon you with damage and/or conditions, and are therefore SR: yes.
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Wall of Ectoplasm
School evocation; Level cleric 5, psychic 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, spiritualist 5
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none, and Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesWall of Ice
School evocation [cold]; Level bloodrager 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, unchained summoner 4; Bloodline boreal 4; Elemental School water 4
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesWall of Bone
School necromancy; Level antipaladin 4, bloodrager 4, cleric 4, psychic 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, spiritualist 4
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes; see text
These are all physical barriers that do act upon you with damage and/or conditions, and are therefore SR: yes.
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Illusory Wall
School illusion (figment); Level sorcerer/wizard 4; Subdomain ambush 5
Duration permanent
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance noWall of Nausea
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
These are all non-physical barriers that do act upon you with damage and/or conditions, but adhere to the "Fool the Senses" rule in SR, and are therefore SR: no.
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Wall of Thorns
School conjuration (creation); Level druid 5, shaman 5; Domain plant 5; Subdomain blood 5
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no <---- Physical Wall that causes damage, but is SR: no nonetheless.Wall of Lava
School conjuration (creation) [earth, fire]; Level druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8; Elemental School earth 8
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no <---- Physical Wall that causes damage, but is SR: no nonetheless.Wall of Suppression
School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Duration 10 minutes/level; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no <----- Not a Physical Wall, but Acts upon your Magic Items as an Anti-Magic Field
These are all the weird Walls that do act upon you with damage and/or conditions, but for some reason that I cannot explain are SR: no. Maybe this rule: "Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected." is in effect here.
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Aside from the Special Cases that Break the Rules, Wall spells have SR: Yes whenever damage/conditions are caused, and are SR: No whenever no damage/conditions are not caused. In any case where a Physical Barrier is created and damage/conditions are caused, it should be SR: No for the barrier, and SR: Yes for the damage/condition, and it's because these rules are in effect:
In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does.
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.
Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body.
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As far as this rule:
Successful Spell Resistance
Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have. The magic continues to affect others normally.
This rule comes into place once
Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.
this rule has been triggered, and an SR check has been determined as necessary based on what the spell actually does with this rule in mind:
In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does.
Once the SR check has been deemed necessary, and the SR check is rolled, a failed check causes that creature to be immune to anything SR-related with that spell.
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I purposefully left out Augmenting Wall because I felt that it was not actually relevant to anything SR-related.
Augmenting Wall
School evocation [see text]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect 20-ft.-high wall of energy whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration 1 round/2 levels (see text)
Saving Throw none (object); Spell Resistance no (object)DESCRIPTION
You create a wall of faintly shimmering elemental energy.
Upon casting this spell, choose either acid, cold, electricity, or fire.
The spell gains the chosen descriptor, and any thrown weapons or ammunition that pass through the augmenting wall as part of a ranged attack deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the specified type in addition to their normal damage. The wall has no effect on melee weapons or items not thrown as part of an attack.
As you cast the spell, you can limit the wall so that it only affects ranged weapons passing through it in the direction of your choice. Doing so halves the spell’s duration.
I love how the "spell resistance: yes (see text)" has no text about spell resistance.
I do think that's the best argument put forward yet.
Are you talking about Wall of Bones or Prismatic Wall?
I'm sorry for my part in that exchange as well, Ryze Kuja; I was snide and insulting, and that was not in any way appropriate.
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I think the best way to illustrate my disagreement with your argument is to look first to the rules sections, starting with:
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies [to the spell] depends on what the spell does.
I included, and want to draw attention to, the first sentence from that section because I feel it gives important context to the second - I read it as restating, essentially, that specific trumps general, and that the spell resistance entry in the spell's description is the ultimate arbiter of whether spell resistance applies. I've added some clarifying text in brackets to the second sentence to hopefully eliminate any possible confusion in how I'm interpreting this passage.
After determining whether spell resistance applies to a spell, the two most pertinent questions are:
1) What constitute the spell's effects?
2) When is the resistant creature in question first affected by one of those effects?
Adjudicating (2) is where the rules in the "When Spell Resistance Applies" section are most helpful. While I know we disagree on a number of issues related to those two questions, we agree that once the spell has been resisted we apply this rule:
Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have.
Where it seems we disagree again is that you refer back to "in general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does" to see whether spell resistance applies to any individual spell effect, rather than applying it to the spell as a whole.
This is, I think, the most meaningful disagreement we have. The passage above seems to make it fairly explicit that spell resistance applies to spells as a whole rather than effects individually, and I don't think the sentence you're trying to refer back to contradicts that interpretation. If I were convinced otherwise I might be more easily convinced that spell resistance did not apply specifically to the wall in Wall of Ice.
Moving back to the list of wall spells you've curated, and applying this difference in interpretation, my sticking point can be mostly summed up by examining this one repeating sentence:
and are therefore SR:
Under the interpretation I discuss above, what the spell does does not, in practice, determine whether or not spell resistance applies to that spell. Since the spell resistance entry, and any language in the spell's text that specifically adjudicates spell resistance, are the most specific factors in determining whether spell resistance applies, they're generally the only factors in that determination. What the spell actually does, when examined under light of the rules in the "When Spell Resistance Applies" section, may give clues as to why an author chose for spell resistance to either apply or not, but those clues cannot outweigh the descriptor. Further, spell resistance applies to the spell and it's effects as an all-or-nothing proposition.
I could quibble about the reasoning behind why spell resistance does or doesn't apply to some of these spells, or about their classification, though for the majority of them I think you're correct about why the author made the choices they did. Ultimately though, until we reconcile the core dispute, the question of why an author chose one particular spell to be "SR yes" or "SR no" is not relevant to whether spell resistance applies to another spell.
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I love how the "spell resistance: yes (see text)" has no text about spell resistance.
Yeah, that spell's text is a bit boneheaded.