Unchained barbarian
She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
Vanilla barbarian
At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. "She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible". She still loses her Dexterity bonus to armor class if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to armor class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
Is the mention of protection against invisible opponents a thing forgotten, in the unchained version, or was it a deliberate change?
It looks like a change - there's also the change to losing dex bonus when immobilized (I've no idea how that's supposed to work!) as a sort of trade-off.
That matter came up during a previous f2f game.
One feedback mentioned by one of the others, was along the following.
"It could also be read as if the first sentence sets the general rule (no Dex lose to AC ever), followed by a clarification. Then the second and third sentences specify an exception to this rule, the barbarian still can be treated as flatfooted if immobilized or feinted.
The Unchained clarifies this version even works if the barbarian is immobilized. Then specifies only one exception to the general rule, feinting can still catch up the barbarian flatfooted."
But i would need to be sure which it is for next session, and perhaps also if the above is true. Sneaky rogues stab hard.
It could also be read as if the first sentence sets the general rule (no Dex lose to AC ever)
No, it can't be read that way, because it says something completely different. Your player seems to believe that "flat-footed" and "lose dexterity bonus to AC" are synonyms, but that is not the case!
cBarb's UD does two things: 1. Prevents flat-footedness, 2. prevents losing dex bonus to AC against invisible attacker (note: does not prevent the -2 penalty that also applies in that case!).
unBarb's UD also does two things: 1. Prevent flat-footedness, 2. prevents losing dex bonus to AC when immobilized.
Yes, these two are not the same, but I don't see any indication that this wasn't a deliberate change. unBarb is not supposed to be identical to cBarb!
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My thesis: It is all an unfortunate editing error.
Isn't it a bit striking that they gave them the ability to retain Dex while immobilized? What does that mean? Does it help against paralysis or only against pinned? What is the rationale on that? if the barbarian cannot move how does he use his Dexterity to avoid the attack?
The Unchained rogue was not modified in the same way. Why would the developers want to create a difference on that class feature depending on what is the source class (published in the same book and both counting towards getting improved uncanny dodge)?
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
What was the need to alter the core Uncanny Dodge? What were they trying to fix/improve?
The same ability describes itself as "a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so". What does being immobilized has to do with reacting to dangers you are not aware of?
After a deep dive on it, I feel this all is a very unfortunate editing error on the Pahtfinder Unchained. Looking at the two versions texts with their line jumps in the original manuscript might help:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the
ability to react to danger before her senses would normally
allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does
she lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian
with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if
an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the
ability to react to danger before her senses would normally
allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does
she lose herDex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She stillDexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian
loses her
with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an
opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
I stroked in purpose the deleted part, to help illustrate how things are the same, word by word, except for the deleted part.
The two lines with deleted text start with a very similar wording:
- she lose her Dex bonus to AC if
- loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if
Might have the person editing the text gone confused and thought there was repeated text and tried to remove it thinking she was fixing something or trying to save space?
Well, we will probably never know because the time for such clarifications is probably past, but there it is for everyone to make their ideas around it.
The uncanny dodge was not announced as modified, and being a well known feature many people probably just skim through it, and on a casual read you might not even notice something was changed, so it might be there was indeed an editing error and no one noticed.
Only one person seemed to notice the disagreement in the Unchained product thread, but no one seemed to give much attention and he was never answered.
Unchained Rogue UD was completely unchanged from base Rogue's UD if it's a reference. Personally, I can see the argument that a barbarian's sheer rage muscles keep you from being so bound that you lose Dex, but the rest of the changes have no plausible explanation besides "Paizo editing" that I can see at least.
Hmm seems like a great idea to multi-class to get both forms of UD.
I just realized this...I guess the Unchained Barbarian really is...unchanined.
Keeping your Dex to AC whilst pinned or swallowed whole is kind of pointless... because you're already pinned or swallowed whole...
I would way rather keep my Dex to AC versus invisible opponents. Fighting invisible enemies is almost guaranteed to happen.
I don't think I have ever had a character pinned or swallowed whole... ever.
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@VoodistMonk, Crimson Throne Book 4 would like a word with you.
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@VoodistMonk, Crimson Throne Book 4 would like a word with you.
LOL.
@VoodistMonk
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take
verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe
version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
A pinned creature loses his Dexterity bonus to AC, but technically it isn't immobilized, as it "can take a few actions."
Weird, I know.