I will admit to not having an exact breakdown of how often it comes up but it is pretty surprising to hear only 3 to 4 times in 6 levels of play. Must not be playing a published AP? Is the player sure that the GM was always announcing when it was used?
It is possible that it wouldn’t come up much in a campaign heavily centered on human and humanoid opposition.
Maybe a wizard who does not cast a lot of spells that target enemies? Or at least their saving throws.
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I will admit to not having an exact breakdown of how often it comes up but it is pretty surprising to hear only 3 to 4 times in 6 levels of play. Must not be playing a published AP? Is the player sure that the GM was always announcing when it was used?
It wasn't an AP but a homebrew campaign. As to knowing if it was used, we play by post and the DM posts what ability is used, defenses, hp, ect to speed rounds up: as such he posts when things activate so we can roll for our round and describe it [including enemy saves]: the only thing that isn't is secret rolls, reactions, ect.
It is possible that it wouldn’t come up much in a campaign heavily centered on human and humanoid opposition.
From most encountered to least: humanoid, animal, beast, giant, plant, aberration, ooze. Maybe 1 or 2 fey/elementals at lower levels [wisps and vexgit I think].
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I will admit to not having an exact breakdown of how often it comes up but it is pretty surprising to hear only 3 to 4 times in 6 levels of play. Must not be playing a published AP? Is the player sure that the GM was always announcing when it was used?It wasn't an AP but a homebrew campaign. As to knowing if it was used, we play by post and the DM posts what ability is used, defenses, hp, ect to speed rounds up: as such he posts when things activate so we can roll for our round and describe it [including enemy saves]: the only thing that isn't is secret rolls, reactions, ect.
It is possible that it wouldn’t come up much in a campaign heavily centered on human and humanoid opposition.From most encountered to least: humanoid, animal, beast, giant, plant, aberration, ooze. Maybe 1 or 2 fey/elementals at lower levels [wisps and vexgit I think].
I am not blaming your GM, as all of us are still relatively new to PF2, but it might be a good idea for that GM to think about what feat choices their players are taking in relationship to what they are homebrewing. If they have a specific plot in mind where a particular feat or set of feats is not going to come up very often, they really should let their players know. Or think about trying to look over their players character sheets and try to design more encounters that will let their player's strengths shine.
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it might be a good idea for that GM to think about what feat choices their players are taking in relationship to what they are homebrewing. If they have a specific plot in mind where a particular feat or set of feats is not going to come up very often, they really should let their players know.
If it was a feat that was never going to be used, I'm pretty sure it would have been brought up. Spell Penetration isn't so easy to telegraph without working out your game 1st-20th and looking at the monsters/foes with the added wrench thrown in with spells being able to grant status bonuses. So, for instance, even if you're planning on mostly humanoids that don't often have a status bonus you might plan on a lot of casters and they then might have them... It's not quite as easy as Underwater Marauder in a Osirian Desert game.
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Also if a dm has to bend over backwards to accommodate a feat....is it a good feat or a very niche one?
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What is the PF2 wizard’s job? To be a master of arcane magic and eventually grow into the most flexible caster in the game, with ways to cast spells from spell slots all day long and in some uniquely interesting ways.
It takes a while to get past feeling like every other caster, and in a 5 level white room, you are going to likely feel like there are many restrictions on you that feel punitive compared to other casters. You are going to need to be a little more cautious and calculating than other classes, and making sure your team is on board to help do the leg work of gathering information and setting up advantageous tactical situations is essential, but a lot of players really like the elements of discovering new Magic’s to cast and becoming an essential part of a well organized team.
If blasting away with focus spells and trying to maximize your DPR as an arcane blaster is more the roll you were looking for, or if just raw power, Ann’s not arcane power is more of interest to you, you might have more fun with a Druid or a sorcerer. By levels 5 to 7, all casters are fully capable of pulling their weight and being essential team players. Play what you want, but know that PF2 tends to blend narrative choices with mechanical ones in ways that don’t always meet everyone’s vision for their character. Try not to focus your character development into specializing in something your class doesn’t do particularly well. It can take some trial and error to figure that out, as some classes appear to offer support for things that don’t work out as well in practice. It’d your character is seriously under performing on your expectations, talk to your GM about rebuilding the character or retiring the character and building something new. Not every class will perform in play the way every player wants them to. There is very likely a class in PF2 that will do all the things you want a character to do and more classes are getting added every year!
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My experience has been that the illusionist wizard needs no buffs. Between Conceal Spell, Silent Spell, and Convincing Illusion, the wizard's illusions are some of the most powerful effects in the game. The illusionist in the AoA game I'm running has been an absolute monster that often pulls off effective stun 4s and 5s on multiple creatures with his illusions. Here's an example:
It would be cool to see each of the wizard schools buffed to somewhere close to those levels. Where's the feat so that you can throw a fireball into the middle of your party without hurting them? Where are the summoning feats that make it easier to summon and control while 200 feet away from you? I think having school focused metamagic or spell augmentation feats at levels 2, 4, and 6 for each school like illusion has would enhance the wizard play experience a lot. Having those effects at those levels would also make wizard archetype pretty appealing for other casters.
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Also notice that people have not said that wizards don't have some good feats. But that most of them are weak or dull compared to other feats.
I don't think Wizards are nearly as weak as some people in this thread are acting, but I will second that their class options are painfully dully.
I mean, even the mentioned Spell Penetration is just +1 to something sometimes. That's not exactly exciting. There are a few cool feats, but then you have a lot of things like an eschew material feats that's essentially just a feat tax on RP, metamagic feat chains that aren't even going to be relevant in a lot of campaigns, minor mechanical bonuses... and a handful of generic feats shared between a lot of casters. Also just being worse at refocusing for... reasons.
It really sort of just feels like the entire Wizard flavor is just 'generic spellcaster' without a lot of room to really do much with it. Fighters are pretty generic too, but Fighters have a lot of visceral and readily apparent power and still get unique feat options too.
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I will second that their class options are painfully dully.
I can't agree more. They have weak or niche feats along with those that work fine and some that are pretty strong... But most are just... meh. For instance, even when you're in a game where you can't swing a 'theoretical' cat without hitting a outsider/dragon and you have Spell Penetration, it falls into the background as a simple mechanical bonus: if the DM alters the DC for you, you might not even remember it.
It really sort of just feels like the entire Wizard flavor is just 'generic spellcaster' without a lot of room to really do much with it. Fighters are pretty generic too, but Fighters have a lot of visceral and readily apparent power and still get unique feat options too.
*nods* Yeah, it seems like the dumping ground for 'magic using guy' stuff without any of the cool new actions and abilities of the generic 'fighting guy' gets.
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Less a balance issue but that's another thing I don't really like about spell penetration. It mostly happens in the background, since you aren't always even aware of what kind of bonuses an enemy has. It feels like one of those things you might not even notice when it works, but also like one of those feats that's going to be really easy for the GM or player or both to just forget about sometimes, which feels bad.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure as a GM to actually get the effects of Spell Pen the player in question would have to ask if it works for every new creature... That's just not something that I'm gonna think about while trying to run a combat.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure as a GM to actually get the effects of Spell Pen the player in question would have to ask if it works for every new creature... That's just not something that I'm gonna think about while trying to run a combat.
I've had enough of these wizard conversations to intimately know the wizard's strengths and weaknesses. I'm not going to forget about spell penetration. See, these conversations do have a minor use, lol.
Less a balance issue but that's another thing I don't really like about spell penetration. It mostly happens in the background, since you aren't always even aware of what kind of bonuses an enemy has. It feels like one of those things you might not even notice when it works, but also like one of those feats that's going to be really easy for the GM or player or both to just forget about sometimes, which feels bad.
I can totally see it being an issue in home games, but online I generally resolve this by adding a note to my character sheet in such a way that it displays an appropriate reminder to everyone any time I make a relevant save or cast a spell. Makes it much harder to forget situational modifiers that way.