An argument for the Child of Acavna and Amaznen, a Rules Question, and Soliciting Build Suggestions

[Ariantar]

The general consensus around the forums seems to be that the Child of Acavna and Amaznen (CA&A) is just a watered down Bloodrager. That opinion, I think, is not egregiously wrong, but it fails to recognize that they have very different strengths. I would argue that the CA&A has a few unique characteristics that make it worthwhile and an incredibly interesting chassis on which to build a true Tank Caster rather than the Bloodrager's Smash Caster:

1 - As far as I can figure, it is the only other full caster level and full BAB class in the game without the need for traits, racial abilities, or feats. Straight up full CL and full BAB.

Movie plot spoiler:

"She can prepare and cast these spells as a wizard, using her fighter level as her caster level."

Besides Arcane Strike, can anyone think of other feats that scale with CL or BAB that would benefit the other discipline? (A CL scaling feat that benefits melee, or a BAB scaling feat that benefits spellcasting)

2 - A CA&A has full Armor Training and does not lose Advanced Armor Training. Therefore, the CA&A has the potential to quite easily pump up AC and the various defensive benefits of Advanced Armor Training. Thanks to Advanced Armor Training, the CA&A gets the AC of a normal fighter PLUS the DR of a barbarian, while a bloodrager must choose either heavy armor (Steelblood) or DR.

Movie plot spoiler:

"Eldritch Armor Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a child of Acavna and Amaznen gains eldritch armor training. This functions as armor training, except as a swift action she can also reduce the arcane spell failure chance due to armor she is wearing by 15% for any spells she casts this round. This reduction increases to 20% at 7th level, 25% at 11th level, and 30% at 15th level. In addition, if she has Arcane Armor Training or Arcane Armor Mastery, rather than having their normal effects, each of those feats increases the arcane spell failure reduction of her eldritch armor training by 10%. This ability modifies armor training."

So the rules question is, am I reading this correctly that armor training is just modified to add arcane spell failure reduction and therefore advanced armor training remains unchanged? It ONLY talks about adding a benefit - it makes no mention of changing any other aspect. I think I'm reading this correctly.

3 - A CA&A is a prepared caster meaning its spell casting is far more versatile. This is a bit of a push - some people prefer spontaneous, but I like the versatility.

4 - Combat Expertise is no barrier. I don't really love combat maneuvers, but all those things blocked by Combat Expertise become a bit more palatable as you are already invested in Int.

Thinking about these things, I've found a few synergies that I'm toying with for a build:

Arcane Strike + Bodyguard + Gloves of Arcane Striking makes way more sense here than on a Bloodrager. An AOO that scales, increasing an adjacent ally's AC by 2 + 1 per 5 levels. While a bloodrager can do this as well, they can't avoid a hit like a CA&A can. In other words, disincentivizing hitting allies is disproportionately more beneficial to the CA&A because the CA&A ALSO is a tough target to hit. The monster is unlikely to hit the ally, but also unlikely to hit the CA&A. On the other hand, the Bloodrager is just absorbing damage (necessitating healing/resources later).

Crafting Magic Arms/Armor (or maybe Wondrous Items). Prepared casters are just better at crafting because they don't have to waste a spell "known" on something they only need for a crafting check. Fighters are extremely item dependent, and this overcomes that issue without the need for the Master Craftsman investment. (The advanced armor craftsman option only works for armor.)

(Just like a bloodrager) Can self enlarge person, but can also easily craft an impact weapon for himself (Unlike a bloodrager).

Kirin Strike/Style is a natural fit - adding Int x 2 as damage (In addition to your strength). Outpaces Bloodrage damage bonuses.

Fighter Only Feats (Or early entry for fighters): Great Weapon Focus/Penetrating Strike/Etc.

Can anyone think of any other good synergies?

Hurdles:
A - Feat Loss. Still the same number as a Ranger or Bloodrager, but can be any combat feat (Not limited by bloodline or combat style lists).
B - Two Handed Martial Proficiency. Easily overcome with Half-Elf or Half-Orc racial proficiency (Or Human Bonus Feat). Or just use a longsword in two hands.
C - Early level Arcane Failure. This is just a matter of time until you can afford mithral around level 7.
D - MAD. It's slightly better than a Bloodrager because CHA is a far more palatable dump stat than INT or WIS.

Am I wrong here? Does this spark any other build ideas for this unloved underdog archetype?

[VoodistMonk]

I have always understood that it simply adds to Armor Training, and that you otherwise still get Advanced Armor Training.

It's cool to get Cantrips, which the Bloodrager does not.

Kirin Style is an action economy nightmare. I would way rather put those feats into VMC Alchemist/Magus/Witch/Wizard.

Arcane Strike + Gloves of Arcane Striking = Awesomeness! Definitely do that.

[VoodistMonk]

VMC Alchemist gets Bombs and Mutagen. The Poison stuff is whatever, but you could use Alchmemy to your advantage... could help Brew Potions for the party if you are willing to take the feat. Could make a fun Halfling Warslinger with Weapon Focus and Slipslinger Style singing Bombs around.

VMC Magus gives you a nice Arcane Pool and all that entails, Spellstrike, and three Magus Arcana. Pretty sweet all around.

VMC Witch gives you a Familiar, a Cantrip (yay, 5/day @ 20!!!), and three Hexes... lots you can do with this.

VMC Wizard gives you a Familiar, a Discovery, a Cantrip (yay, 5/day @ 20!!!), and two School Powers. Pretty solid use of five feats.

Depending on a few things, Improved Familiar could be mighty useful to have a wand-using Familiar... making Witch and Wizard immediately more appealing. Plus, both Witch and Wizard increase your total number of Cantrips you can prepare each day by 25%...

[avr]

1: Trappings of the warrior occultist and I think the dandy ranger also qualifies. It is the only full BAB full spellcaster level arcane caster though.
2: You won't be able to trade in levels of armor training for advanced armor training the way that changes it, but you can spend feats on AAT if you want.
4: Arcane strike works. Crafting items works too. Fighter only feats work, but they don't impress me much.

Ki-rin style is a terrible fit. It wants all your swift actions (while CAA wants swift actions to reduce/negate spell failure), and it wants a lot of skill points to identify monsters (also a problem on a 4-level spellcaster melee goon w/2+Int base), and it wants feats which CAA loses many of. And it's not good in the first place. Forget it exists for your fighter.

Other ideas - artful dodge switches Dex prereqs to Int which you might be able to find a use for. Weapon trick (one-handed) isn't terrible. In a gestalt game you might be able to make it work one way or another to make an Int-based character more robust.

[Ariantar]

avr wrote:

1: Trappings of the warrior occultist and I think the dandy ranger also qualifies. It is the only full BAB full spellcaster level arcane caster though.

2: You won't be able to trade in levels of armor training for advanced armor training the way that changes it, but you can spend feats on AAT if you want.
4: Arcane strike works. Crafting items works too. Fighter only feats work, but they don't impress me much.

Ki-rin style is a terrible fit. It wants all your swift actions (while CAA wants swift actions to reduce/negate spell failure), and it wants a lot of skill points to identify monsters (also a problem on a 4-level spellcaster melee goon w/2+Int base), and it wants feats which CAA loses many of. And it's not good in the first place. Forget it exists for your fighter.

Other ideas - artful dodge switches Dex prereqs to Int which you might be able to find a use for. Weapon trick (one-handed) isn't terrible. In a gestalt game you might be able to make it work one way or another to make an Int-based character more robust.

1: Dandy - good call. Forgot they get cantrips. Plus bard spells are fun. Ive gone back and forth about whether Trappings of the Warrior can actually take feats based off the "treated as" BAB level or not? RAW I don't think they technically can? But that's hand-waived away I think by most DMs?

2 - I don't think that's correct: "A fighter with an archetype that replaces armor training cannot select advanced armor training options." This archetype modifies Armor Training, does not replace it, and does not reduce any of its functionality.

Also, I would point out that the CA&A get 4+Int skills/level, rather than 2+int. Skills make adventuring fun and interesting.

Voodist and avr are both completely right about the Kirin & Arcane strike action economy issue. What if you built around Kirin Style, instead? It comes online later anyway (when your bonus feats become more common). Your 6,7, 9, and 12 feats are Improved Unarmed, Kirin Style, Kirin Strike, Kirin Path. Means early levels you build typical power attack. CA&A gain knowledge arcane & religion as class skills. Fighters already have dungeoneering as a class skill. For IDing monsters you're missing Nature and Planes? That's it, I think. Very available via traits or alternate racials. With 6-7 skills/level (more if Background Skills are in play), you can pretty easily keep most of these at max level and have room for a few other skills. The last feat in the chain (Kirin Path) is particularly strong if you have 16-18 intelligence (assuming headbands of int +2 or 4). Adding 8 damage, and then being able to move 15-20ft every turn without provoking AOOs sets you up for easy flanking. Tack on the low hanging fruit of Power Attack/Furious Focus + 2 or 3 (if human) other feats to play around with, and you're looking at level 12: +12 dmg for power attack and +8 damage for your int of 18 (assuming int +4). That's without adding your 1.5 strength mod or your weapon damage die. And you can self-haste? Plus you're a knowledge beast - both in and out of combat. Those are pretty respectable numbers, considering you're full BAB with enhanced out of combat utility. *Edited to add* Self Haste, Fly, Phantom Steed, mirror image, resist energy, see invisibility all depending on the situation - without spending feats for item masteries*

I had completely forgotten Artful Dodge. That opens up some options, doesn't it? Artful Dodge + Two-Weapon Fighting is possible. Arcane strike is your static damage bonus that can make Two-Weapon Fighting equitable. Armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet works pretty well here too, allow for casting. Still a huge feat suck, I suppose. I can't really think of any other high Dex prereq feats.

[VoodistMonk]

Don't forget that Flickering Step allows Fighters to take Dimensional Savant feats as Fighter Bonus Feats...

[PhD. Okkam]

Artful Dodge (Combat feat) maybe useful to you

[zza ni]

about #1 (being the only full bab and caster level) i could have sworn iv see somewhere that bloodragers cast spells at their full class level. and that it was intentional since most of their damaging spells would be sub per if they used class level -3 like rangers or paladins.
but now i can't seem to find where i read it.

i seem to remember something about getting like, burning hands, at 4th level and doing 1d4 fire being not on per at all. so they made them full caster levels

[Derklord]

The rules on caster level say "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell" (CRB pg. 208). Ranger and Paladin have this in their 'spells' class feature: "Through 3rd level, a [ranger/paladin] has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, [his/her] caster level is equal to [his ranger/her paladin] level – 3." Bloodragers' 'spells' class feature contains no such text, which means the default rules apply, and a 4th level Bloodager has a caster level of 4.

[Ariantar]

Well I found what I think is a pretty cool follow up synergy:

The weakness with Bodyguard is that the enemy has to be within melee range to make the attack roll to Aid Another. It typically requires juggling reach weapons so that you can strike" the far side enemy. Well the CA&A can overcome that with Magic Trick (Mage Hand):

Ranged Aid (base attack bonus +1): You’ve learned to use your mage hand to tug at an opponent’s hair, clothing, and equipment. You can use the aid another action at range, attempting a ranged touch attack instead of a melee attack.

So the chain is Combat Reflexes -> Bodyguard -> Magic Trick (Mage Hand) -> Arcane Strike (Gloves of Lesser Arcane Striking).

I can always aid another adjacent ally, regardless of the enemy's position. And because the CA&A casts 0 level spells like a Wizard, I get infinite uses of mage hand per day. That's pretty cool, I think.

Any other ways to game the aid another mechanic? There's a trait that adds an additional +1 to the aid another bonus, but that doesn't really add utility or extra action economy.

P.s. I've always understood Bloodragers to have CL = to class level. I was trying to articulate it's the only other (besides Bloodrager) class with full BAB and full CL and trying to find ways to use that to its advantage.

[avr]

There's quite a few things which add to aid another.

Halflings (and those adopted by halflings) can get a trait which raises the bonus by +2, a ring of tactical precision raises it by +1, magic armor with the benevolent property raises it by the enhancement bonus of the armor when aiding for AC, benevolent weapons add their bonus to attacks aided, true love lockets raise it by +1.

Vanguard style allows aiding reflex saves, swift aid allows aid as a swift action (thou' with a +1 bonus and some of the bonuses above won't apply) and the allied cloak spell might be useful later on. Just make sure your friends have cloaks of resistance with the same bonus for simplicity.