Murder

[Yqatuba]

Kind of a weird question but: as it's relatively easy to bring people back from the dead in Pathfinder would murder not be considered as serious a crime/evil act as in real life? That would make sense to me as the main reason murder is so bad in real life is because the victim is gone forever. Also, on a related note: would turning people into undead or otherwise trapping their souls be considered worse than murder since they can't be brought until their soul is freed?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Yqatuba wrote:

Kind of a weird question but: as it's relatively easy to bring people back from the dead in Pathfinder would murder not be considered as serious a crime/evil act as in real life? That would make sense to me as the main reason murder is so bad in real life is because the victim is gone forever. Also, on a related note: would turning people into undead or otherwise trapping their souls be considered worse than murder since they can't be brought until their soul is freed?

Resurrection is generally uncommon, and requires an expensive ritual to do so, meaning it's not particularly prevalent amongst the common people. It might be done for rulers of kingdoms, if they were somehow assassinated, but requiring remains of some kind to do so is a bit problematic. In fact, some of those rituals can go horribly wrong and potentially desecrate the remains into some undead monstrosity, meaning a ritualist inexperienced enough may cause more harm than good. It's risky business that most don't do unless they're either rich, desperate, and/or depraved. It's been the source of many a story's moral quandaries, one most obvious being Full Metal Alchemist, where bringing someone back from the dead is both considered forbidden, as well as the story demonstrating first-hand dangerousness for what happens when such deeds are committed.

That being said, most would agree that being denied an afterlife is worse than forced death (which is basically what murder is), since even if you do die, you are generally sent to the Boneyard to be judged and consequently sent to one of the numerous planes of existence, or to just wander endlessly throughout the Ethereal/Astral Plane. Being denied that is torture of the highest order, and is precisely the reason why deities like Pharasma have such prejudice and disdain for undead and soul trappers: It upsets the balance of souls.

[James Jacobs]

It would absolutely be a crime and an evil act. Since bringing back the dead requires a ritual or, at best, an un common 6th level spell available only to one of the four categories of spellcasters, I wouldn't quantify bringing back the dead as "relatively easy" at all. But even if raise dead were a 1st level skill feat that anyone could learn, murder would still be a crime and evil; having it be anything else would require an entirely different type of world and society than what we present in Pathfinder.

And of course, whether or not someone is allowed to be resurrected at all depends on whether or not Pharasma has judged them—AKA whether or not the GM wants that NPC or the player wants that PC to be able to come back from the dead in the first place.

[TwilightKnight]

Yqatuba wrote:

Kind of a weird question...

If you are running a strictly RAW Golarion campaign, then it is both an evil act and a serious crime. However, like all rules in the game, they only apply if your GM wants to include them in the game. If the GM says resurrection is commonplace and thus as long as the person who commits the crime can bring the victim back their punishment is reduced/mitigated (or some such), that's your call. Though there are some possibly serious ramification for messing with the cycle of life since deities like Pharasma tangibly exist and will not be happy if their domain is being manipulated.

One question you have to ask is why would you want to "encourage" murder by making it less offensive? Is it because you want to run a horribly juvenile campaign where things like murder, slavery, etc. occur or something else? Because honestly, while I understand the nature of the original question, my first reaction is why would you want it to?

Personally, I would not classify the resurrection ritual or raise dead to be "relatively easy." It is an expense that is well beyond most commoners and even many wealthy. Not to mention there may be people who don't want to see the deceased brought back, like the new king might not want his dad brought back now that he's in power, etc.

However, if coming back from the dead is a relative commonplace in your campaign, I could see it being dropped on the list of "heinous" crimes. Torture, enslavement, basically anything that would cause ongoing pain and suffering might be considered worse. I guess it depends on your campaign. Though I doubt it would ever be considered anything but evil. Probably worse than murder is anything that would impact a person's soul. Unlike our real world, there is definitive proof in Golarion of an afterlife. Since that is essentially a permanent existence, post mortal death, messing with it is likely to be a VERY serious crime and not just to the local government, but powerful extraplanar beings up to and including deities might not take it kindly if you are messing with the souls of people destined for their neighborhood.

Would you consider theft to be a less serious crime if the items are returned? Would you consider any crime to be less serious if you can simply go get an atonement?

[lemeres]

This is like breaking both of a person's legs, and leaving them stranded in the desert- they MIGHT come out of it alive. But the chances are not very good, and even if they manage to make it, it will be a barrowing and torturous experience.

Even if we removed certain barriers (casting power, costs)... the person might not end up resurrected. If you kill someone in a remote location, it might take months before they are discovered and identified. By that time, their souls may have passed on and they cannot be resurrected.

You could base an entire quest around the race to find the body in time for the magic to be effective.

[Yqatuba]

I actually WOULD consider theft to be less serious if the thief repents their crime and gives back the stolen goods of their own volition. I think they even do sometimes punish it less severely if that happens.

[Yqatuba]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Kind of a weird question...

One question you have to ask is why would you want to "encourage" murder by making it less offensive? Is it because you want to run a horribly juvenile campaign where things like murder, slavery, etc. occur or something else? Because honestly, while I understand the nature of the original question, my first reaction is why would you want it to?

I'm more curious about how the in-universe people would feel, or if the punishment would be less severe than in real life. Also, I kind of misspoke when I said it was "relatively easy". I meant compared to in real life, where it's outright impossible to bring a murder victim back to life.

[TwilightKnight]

If you are asking about a theorycrafting idea like "what if I really did live in the world of Golarion, how would I feel about 'X' then the answer is likely to be very different than "how should characters in my world of Golarion campaign feel about 'X'." The former is a much more philosophical and perhaps existential question while the latter might be more practical when it comes to managing your campaign.

[David knott 242]

The Anglo-Saxons had a legal concept called a "weregild" that was basically a fine for committing murder. In a Pathfinder setting, the monetary amount could be set by the cost of bringing the person back to life (rather than setting a price based on the social status of the deceased) plus an additional amount for pain and suffering.

Of course, there is the complication that magic to raise the dead does not always work, as there is always the chance that the deceased has already been judged by Pharasma or does not want to be brought back to life.

But based on analogous real world situations, I think the main issue we would face would be when to consider a person truly dead, and how to treat cases where a person is dead but able to be brought back to life by magic, either in his original body or in a new one.

[Claxon]

David knott 242 wrote:

The Anglo-Saxons had a legal concept called a "weregild" that was basically a fine for committing murder. In a Pathfinder setting, the monetary amount could be set by the cost of bringing the person back to life (rather than setting a price based on the social status of the deceased) plus an additional amount for pain and suffering.

Of course, there is the complication that magic to raise the dead does not always work, as there is always the chance that the deceased has already been judged by Pharasma or does not want to be brought back to life.

But based on analogous real world situations, I think the main issue we would face would be when to consider a person truly dead, and how to treat cases where a person is dead but able to be brought back to life by magic, either in his original body or in a new one.

Weregild was a tad bit different, at least in my perspective. It was more along the lines of one group paying another group for the damage, but mostly so they would not start a war/feud. It was essentially a bribe saying "let's not have more violence".

[David knott 242]

Of course weregild is not the same thing (for one thing, the money paid could not bring the dead person back to life), but it is an example of a fine paid for committing murder. In a world where people can be brought back to life via an expensive spell, such a fine would become appropriate for entirely different reasons -- and for other reasons that I cited, it probably would not be sufficient punishment on its own.

As an example: I could easily see a sentence for murder being death or life imprisonment, reduced to two years if the murderer can arrange to have the victim brought back to life in his own body, or five years if he is successfully reincarnated -- with perhaps an additional year tacked on if insufficient Restoration spells are supplied.

[Kelseus]

Claxon wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

The Anglo-Saxons had a legal concept called a "weregild" that was basically a fine for committing murder. In a Pathfinder setting, the monetary amount could be set by the cost of bringing the person back to life (rather than setting a price based on the social status of the deceased) plus an additional amount for pain and suffering.

Of course, there is the complication that magic to raise the dead does not always work, as there is always the chance that the deceased has already been judged by Pharasma or does not want to be brought back to life.

But based on analogous real world situations, I think the main issue we would face would be when to consider a person truly dead, and how to treat cases where a person is dead but able to be brought back to life by magic, either in his original body or in a new one.

Weregild was a tad bit different, at least in my perspective. It was more along the lines of one group paying another group for the damage, but mostly so they would not start a war/feud. It was essentially a bribe saying "let's not have more violence".

Think less criminal penalty and more damages for wrongful death suit.

[Elicoor]

When the wergeld/weregild has official specified values depending on the age and gender of the murdered person, as it was at some period with the Wisigoths, it's more like damages to compensate for the loss and less like a bribe.
Or, like the salian franks, when you have specific damages amounts to compensate for wounds, and murders. I know that these kind of damages existed to avoid using the faide laws (compensating blood by blood), but they are still a form of damages.

In that way and among the wealthy, the values could be equated to the price of a resurrection spell/ritual. Though, many cultures might not want to try such rituals, by fear their beloved ones might become feral undead due to failures. (It might be an interesting plot starter though: a ritual that went wrong, and paid for by weregild might be a good call for investigation and adventure).

[Themetricsystem]

Honestly, I would posit that "resurrection" or "raise dead" in-context to the actual medical understanding that the professionals of Golarion are concerned is far FAR rarer than the kind of services people in REAL LIFE can get at a modern medical facility.

Prior to the 1950s, there wasn't even a real standard definition of death and the technological progress of this setting is firmly grounded in technological advancements that range from around 900 - 1800 AD. People prior to the 1900's whose heart stopped or went into a coma were effectively toast.

If we assume that the costs associated with one nights stay at a LOW cost motel is roughly equivalent to Lodging that means that the 8sp equals the $80-ish it costs IRL meaning each silver is worth about $10 USD which lines up nicely with nearly all of the mundane gear such as a backpack that can be cheaply purchased for around $10. Extrapolate this out to GP and that means 1 gp is about $100 USD. A PC that is level 10 (Not even technically high enough level to have access to 6th level spellcasting but anyhow...) costs 2160 gp to raise so then we know that this would cost someone about $216,000 USD to bring them back from the dead. That alone is worth just about the value of a 2 bedroom 1.5 bath home with an acre of land that is located in a not-rundown suburb. To put it in perspective in the US alone there would be less than 100 people who could actually pay for this on the spot with actual REAL money (as opposed to using credit leveraged against assets which is more or less how REAL wealthy people spend money).

With all of that in mind what this means is that only the most hyper-wealthy and well-connected people on the globe will end up being able to get these services, and even then only if they happen to be within 70.8999999~ hours travel of a willing or available Spellcaster capable of this service which... again, won't be available in the VAST majority of cities and settlements given that it's a 6th level Spell. Even THEN I imagine that these castings are very VERY tightly controlled by the Church of the Spellcaster as well as any local or national governments, mafias, cults.

PCs are the super-duper rarity in the world as well with the vast majority of all NPCs (something north of 98%) would fall somewhere between level -1 and level 2. Divine Spellcasters who are NOT players that exist in these societies would be as rare if not more so than the average multi-millionaire in meatspace.

All this to say, I guarantee that even if the populations of Golarian and Earth were identical and we compared modern medicine to the magic that Golarion has access to that there would STILL be thousands of times more people "raised from the dead" in modern Earth society than there EVER could be inside the Campaign setting and most of these would be exclusively reserved for mainly JUST the highest-ranking officials of the locality they happen to be in and/or those who happen to have so much wealth that they already pay for and control the entire local economy. As for Player Characters, it's STILL not something that's easy to pull off even if you're a high enough level. The ability to magically raise the dead is more or less moot compared to real life due to the fact that the only people who could ever actually afford it would be the Koch's, Gate's, Bezos's and Musks of the world. Just because the most elite of elites can access life-saving procedures does not at ALL mean that violence or even murder is less morally or ethically questionable.

[Ediwir]

James Jacobs wrote:

But even if raise dead were a 1st level skill feat that anyone could learn, murder would still be a crime and evil; having it be anything else would require an entirely different type of world and society than what we present in Pathfinder.

Like the First World?

:P

[Yqatuba]

David knott 242 wrote:

As an example: I could easily see a sentence for murder being death or life imprisonment, reduced to two years if the murderer can arrange to have the victim brought back to life in his own body, or five years if he is successfully reincarnated -- with perhaps an additional year tacked on if insufficient Restoration spells are supplied.

I was actually thinking this exact thing: If a murder offers to pay for their victim's resurrection (or cast the spell themselves) they might get let off easy (or even not punished at all, if the resurrected murder victim doesn't want to press charges.)

[Ediwir]

Yqatuba wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

As an example: I could easily see a sentence for murder being death or life imprisonment, reduced to two years if the murderer can arrange to have the victim brought back to life in his own body, or five years if he is successfully reincarnated -- with perhaps an additional year tacked on if insufficient Restoration spells are supplied.

I was actually thinking this exact thing: If a murder offers to pay for their victim's resurrection (or cast the spell themselves) they might get let off easy (or even not punished at all, if the resurrected murder victim doesn't want to press charges.)

On the other hand, we're still reasoning in terms of modern justice with magic.

Beyond the idea that affording a resurrection is probably ludicrous for 99% of people, and that bribing the guards or the judge is likely much more affordable, the only ones who would be capable of resolving murders this way are likely nobles... and I can totally see the sons / daughters arguing against disturbing the dead's soul while they divide the inheritance.

[TwilightKnight]

Kelseus wrote:

Think less criminal penalty and more damages for wrongful death suit.

IMO that is a modern sensibility. In most case prior to the industrial age the standard response to someone being murdered was to return the favor whether that be by law enforcement, the mob, or more commonly family members. I don't think the resurrection of said person some time in the future would stop many (most?) of those retaliations.

[Ixal]

Raise Dead has always been a huge problem for settings where it is easily available which includes D&D and Pathfinder as it would alter the societies a lot to make it unrecognizable.

Gone are murder plots when you can simply resurrect someone and inheritance and with it most noble power structures become very complicated when resurrections is possible, especially years after the death.

In Pathfinder, raising someone from the dead is not all that hard. Its not all that expensive, sure common people would not be able to afford it, but most nobles and maybe even merchants can. And access to clerics are also not impossible when you have the right contacts (nobles).
It would make churches much more influental, but on the other hand you have multiple well established faiths not actively fighting each other so nobles can search around to find a cleric who will raise someone without wanting too much in return. This is made even more easy as there are faiths of commerce for example for who selling resurrections without ulterior motive is part of their believe.

Sadly, like with so many other things, the solution to that in Pathfinder is to ignore this ability completely for everyone except the PCs.

[CorvusMask]

In 2e its plenty expensive so I dunno what you mean :p

That and it also has higher level restriction for caster(both as cleric spell and as ritual you don't need spell casters for) than in 1e

Anyhoo sidenote, 1e does make multiple mentions of monarchs and resurrection spells and there was one crime boss who used their whole fortune to buy multiple true resurrection scrolls :D

[Ixal]

CorvusMask wrote:

In 2e its plenty expensive so I dunno what you mean :p

That and it also has higher level restriction for caster(both as cleric spell and as ritual you don't need spell casters for) than in 1e

Anyhoo sidenote, 1e does make multiple mentions of monarchs and resurrection spells and there was one crime boss who used their whole fortune to buy multiple true resurrection scrolls :D

For PCs maybe whos wealth is usually directly tied to their level which in turn increases the ressurection cost.

But for many nobles their wealth would easily outstrip their level making resurrection (and other raise dead methods) rather cheap for them. Also, as an established noble or merchant its much more likely that they can trade favors, land or can do it on credit compared to an adventurer who can simply pack up and leave any time they want.

[AlastarOG]

I actually could see the church of Abadar or other mercantile god stating out a resurection insurance and making the wealthy pay for it.

Much like critical illness and disability insurance works now.

''Pay us 100gp per month and we'll raise dead you the second you're a victim of violent death! Die of Old age? We'll give a portion of what you paid to your descendants!''

[Castilliano]

How much would it be raise a PF2 NPC when they might be a level 6 threat in court and a level -1 threat in combat?
With that metaphysics, I could see many wealthy refraining from learning combat skills!

"No, no, don't want to put too much of a financial burden on myself when I die."
Or
"Darn it! He died arguing in court, that fool! Why couldn't he have started fighting a random person when he'd felt the heart attack coming!"

ETA:
"Why are your children all so incompetent?"
"So they're easier to bring back when they die."

Of course, combat skills would also lead to less chance of death (given other factors remain the same) so one would have juggle risk/reward ratios.

[Claxon]

AlastarOG wrote:

I actually could see the church of Abadar or other mercantile god stating out a resurection insurance and making the wealthy pay for it.

Much like critical illness and disability insurance works now.

''Pay us 100gp per month and we'll raise dead you the second you're a victim of violent death! Die of Old age? We'll give a portion of what you paid to your descendants!''

For some reason, I thought there was cannon evidence of this happening in the PF1 setting, but maybe I just imagined it because it seems like complete common sense sort of thing.

Clerics of Abadar with contracts to resurrect nobles who can pay for it, possibly secondary contracts with the right/"wrong" type of person who can cast reincarnate if you've neared the end of your natural life span.

"Spas" where you go to die and be reincarnated.

Honestly, this sort of stuff I loved as part of consequences of the setting.

[Elfteiroh]

I'll just say that "Oh, they are paying for the resurrection, so it's mostly good!" to be kinda problematic. That's shuffling all the trauma and pain of being *killed* under the rug, and again, letting "rich" murderers, mainly those that kill "for fun" mostly free... I see it as MUCH MORE EVIL to "kill and resurrect" than just killing... tbh.
If I came to your house, broke your legs, and said "it's ok, I'll pay your hospital bills", I'm not sure anyone would be ok with that or agree that I should get a lesser jail time than if I was just coming into your house to break your legs.

[Ravingdork]

Claxon wrote:

For some reason, I thought there was cannon evidence of this happening in the PF1 setting, but maybe I just imagined it because it seems like complete common sense sort of thing.

You know, I could have sworn I read something similar somewhere, in one of the 1E paperback splat books or perhaps one of the Golarian novelizations.

[Rysky]

Claxon wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

I actually could see the church of Abadar or other mercantile god stating out a resurection insurance and making the wealthy pay for it.

Much like critical illness and disability insurance works now.

''Pay us 100gp per month and we'll raise dead you the second you're a victim of violent death! Die of Old age? We'll give a portion of what you paid to your descendants!''

For some reason, I thought there was cannon evidence of this happening in the PF1 setting, but maybe I just imagined it because it seems like complete common sense sort of thing.

Clerics of Abadar with contracts to resurrect nobles who can pay for it, possibly secondary contracts with the right/"wrong" type of person who can cast reincarnate if you've neared the end of your natural life span.

"Spas" where you go to die and be reincarnated.

Honestly, this sort of stuff I loved as part of consequences of the setting.

It occurred in the Pathfinder Tales Death Heretic, it’s not Abadar specific.

[AlastarOG]

Man you could write an adventure path about a dystopian megacity where the rich are afranchised from death and have a whole sub eco system for them and the poor suffer and die.

Think Jupiter Ascending but like... with more magic... and actually fun and interesting... and Sean Bean dies...

[MaxAstro]

Rysky wrote:

TwilightKnight wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

we're still reasoning in terms of modern justice

That is the major problem with most of these discussions. A lot of people are not able (or chose not) to separate the ideals of our modern 21st century ideology from that of fantasy setting that range from analogous to dark/middle ages up thru post-renaissance.

Please point where Golarion and/or other settings ascribe "authentically" to some Earth culture of the past instead of a fantasy setting written by modern writers.

"That's how I assumed it worked in this time period in Earth's past" is 100% irrelevant to a fantasy setting.

THIS.

I see a lot of people make comparisons between Golarion and Dark Ages or Renaissance Earth and those comparisons are not really appropriate at all. Just because it's a fantasy setting and the majority of other fantasy settings are based on that time period doesn't mean it's relevant to Golarion.

Golarion is significantly more progressive than most fantasy settings (and certainly vastly more progressive than Dark Ages Earth) for one.

[Ravingdork]

Rysky wrote:

It occurred in the Pathfinder Tales Death Heretic, it’s not Abadar specific.

Apparently, Death's Heretic was named the third-best fantasy novel of 2011 by Barnes & Noble Booksellers. :)

Death's Heretic back cover:

Nobody Cheats Death
A warrior haunted by his past, Salim is a problem-solver for a church he hates, bound by the death goddess to hunt down those who would rob her of her due. Such is the case in the desert nation of Thuvia, where a powerful merchant on the verge of achieving eternal youth via a magical elixir is mysteriously murdered, his soul stolen from the afterlife. The only clue is a magical ransom note, offering to trade the merchant's spirit for his dose of the fabled potion. But who could steal a soul from the boneyard of Death herself? Enter Salim, whose unique skills should make solving this mystery a cinch. There's only one problem: The investigation is being financed by the dead merchant's stubborn and aristocratic daughter—and she wants to go with him. Together, the two must embark on a tour of the Outer Planes, where devils and angels rub shoulders with fey lords and mechanical men, and nothing is as it seems.

[Castilliano]

Ravingdork wrote:

Rysky wrote:

It occurred in the Pathfinder Tales Death Heretic, it’s not Abadar specific.

Apparently, Death's Heretic was named the third-best fantasy novel of 2011 by Barnes & Noble Booksellers. :)

** spoiler omitted **

Having designed and set up a display to showcase the choices that year, I can tell you the list was okay, but not as wondrous as it sounds. There are scores of books a non-Paizo-minded reader should indulge in first (and that'd exclude most if not all of the other entries too).

If I recall, it was a list made by one guy, the buyer for fantasy at the home office (and maybe his helpers?). So "Booksellers" is a reference to the company's full name, not a survey of B&N's booksellers.
If it weren't for my affection for Golarion, I would've ranked it passable, but not exemplary. For fans though, it's chock full of insight into one the key Paizo minds and how he views Golarion. So I'd recommend to most anybody reading this comment! But not in general.

[Ixal]

MaxAstro wrote:

THIS.

I see a lot of people make comparisons between Golarion and Dark Ages or Renaissance Earth and those comparisons are not really appropriate at all. Just because it's a fantasy setting and the majority of other fantasy settings are based on that time period doesn't mean it's relevant to Golarion.

Golarion is significantly more progressive than most fantasy settings (and certainly vastly more progressive than Dark Ages Earth) for one.

That is rather short sighted. The society on Golarion might be more progressive in some areas, but that is only a small part of what defined the renaissance, for example. The technological constrains defined them much more and those constrains exist in Pathfinder, too, unless in cases where they are broken by magic. And those cases are usually called out and rather rare as large scale magic is unusual at best.

Which means, Golarion does work a lot like real life earth did with similar technology. And most technology in PF falls into the renaissance era.

[Castilliano]

Ixal wrote:

MaxAstro wrote:

THIS.

I see a lot of people make comparisons between Golarion and Dark Ages or Renaissance Earth and those comparisons are not really appropriate at all. Just because it's a fantasy setting and the majority of other fantasy settings are based on that time period doesn't mean it's relevant to Golarion.

Golarion is significantly more progressive than most fantasy settings (and certainly vastly more progressive than Dark Ages Earth) for one.

That is rather short sighted. The society on Golarion might be more progressive in some areas, but that is only a small part of what defined the renaissance, for example. The technological constrains defined them much more and those constrains exist in Pathfinder, too, unless in cases where they are broken by magic. And those cases are usually called out and rather rare as large scale magic is unusual at best.

Which means, Golarion does work a lot like real life earth did with similar technology. And most technology in PF falls into the renaissance era.

It think the point about Golarion being mostly progressive is to divorce Golarion's ethics from Earth's. Sure, Galt mirrors France's political turmoil, but there's no Napoleonic Code lessening women's roles in society.

And the roles of the dozens of religions with a spectrum of views on daily matters plays differently than dominant Catholicism vs. rebellious Protestantism does (and they agreed on most issues re: daily life). That leads to a broader discussion of ethics & morals in Golarion rather than a few authoritarian sources.
So you can't look at Revolutionary France and ask how women or other minorities were treated to approximate Galt, nor use their penal or religious codes of conduct as more than a suggestion.
Not that all Golarion areas have surpassed all comparable Earth regions, but in general yes, they have. With notable differences, like Halfling enslavement in Cheliax, being the realms of bad guys.

[MaxAstro]

Thanks, Castilliano. You said what I was trying to say, better than I could say it. :)

[TwilightKnight]

MaxAstro wrote:

I see a lot of people make comparisons between Golarion and Dark Ages or Renaissance Earth and those comparisons are not really appropriate at all. Just because it's a fantasy setting and the majority of other fantasy settings are based on that time period doesn't mean it's relevant to Golarion.

True. Golarion is hard to define simply because Paizo has taken a somewhat renaissance fantasy world and layered some industrial revolution and modern sensibilities. Personally I try to refer to it as post-renaissance but even that is not entirely accurate. There is no historical era that aligns with it closely enough that you can simply use those terms wholisticly, though there are some specific regions/countries that you might. It makes it nearly impossible to have comparative discussions because there are always exceptions that someone points out. And then there are the issues of magic and that deities really do exist...

[AlastarOG]

Funny I always saw Galt as more of the struggle of Quebec (or new france) beign assimilated by the british empire into modern day Canada.

But then again I am from Quebec.

Whenever asked about the feel of Golarion by people i often just go with Magipunk.

It's more Final Fantasy than greyhawk lets just say.

[MaxAstro]

Magipunk! That's a good term, I haven't heard it before.

[Ixal]

Castilliano wrote:

It think the point about Golarion being mostly progressive is to divorce Golarion's ethics from Earth's. Sure, Galt mirrors France's political turmoil, but there's no Napoleonic Code lessening women's roles in society.
And the roles of the dozens of religions with a spectrum of views on daily matters plays differently than dominant Catholicism vs. rebellious Protestantism does (and they agreed on most issues re: daily life). That leads to a broader discussion of ethics & morals in Golarion rather than a few authoritarian sources.
So you can't look at Revolutionary France and ask how women or other minorities were treated to approximate Galt, nor use their penal or religious codes of conduct as more than a suggestion.
Not that all Golarion areas have surpassed all comparable Earth regions, but in general yes, they have. With notable differences, like Halfling enslavement in Cheliax, being the realms of bad guys.

Sure, but that is still only social and yes, Golarion is a much nicer place than earth was.

But much of a society is also shaped by necessity. Does Golarion have modern farming and transportation technology? It doesn't look like it and that means most of the people have to be farmers just like in the real world which in itself shapes societies. And without mass transportation except on water shapes the way countries form and where people settle. Such things in turn influence who will have access to education, and so on.
Magic can change some of this, but with the way magic works in PF its nearly always just small scale. And in places where magic can be practiced so much that it shapes society its usually mentioned in the books, meaning that when it is not then its safe to assume that it does not happen.

Of course it often happens that Paizo simply decides that such and such simply is, even when it makes no sense based on the available technology (just look at Starfinders economic system for example).

AlastarOG wrote:

Funny I always saw Galt as more of the struggle of Quebec (or new france) beign assimilated by the british empire into modern day Canada.

But then again I am from Quebec.

Whenever asked about the feel of Golarion by people i often just go with Magipunk.

It's more Final Fantasy than greyhawk lets just say.

They started a revolution to overthrow monarchy, invented and extensively used guillotines and have fallen to bloodshed and anarchy. Its pretty obvious that they are Notfrance.

[TwilightKnight]

Ixal wrote:

Of course it often happens that Paizo simply decides that such and such simply is

True. Like Greyhawk before it, Golarion has some very stark socio/political/economic/religious difference bordering each other with little to no blending. Or why after nearly twenty years, Alkenstar is still the only place you can find firearms in any meaningful quantity despite their superiority to classic arms. It’s just a necessary evil in order to tell the variety of stories they want to tell.

[Ixal]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Or why after nearly twenty years, Alkenstar is still the only place you can find firearms in any meaningful quantity despite their superiority to classic arms. It’s just a necessary evil in order to tell the variety of stories they want to tell.

That I find rather believable without high speed communication and transportation. The knowledge of new weapons and the need to adapt would only spread fast if Alkenstar would wage war on its neighbors. Or if there were a forward thinking ruler who would adapt firearms in mass, at great cost, and use it for conquest.

[TwilightKnight]

Perhaps, but again when you mix magic into the equation issues of communication and transportation become blurry. Not to mention there is a similar issue in Numeria when technology has largely remained isolated, again despite its inherent advantages. Surely* the techno league has a lot to do with it, but after decades, you would think it would at least start to appear sporadically outside the borders and it doesn’t seem to. Again, I think this organic expansion is intentionally stifled in order to maintain the canonization of printed product and so there is some stability in order to tell the stories they want to tell months or even years from now. The 2E update to the cannon is really the only advance we’ve had and it took an edition change to happen. It’s just another piece in the puzzle of why it’s so hard to make analogous comparisons to Earth history with any accuracy.

* sorry for calling you Shirley :-D

[Arachnofiend]

AlastarOG wrote:

Man you could write an adventure path about a dystopian megacity where the rich are afranchised from death and have a whole sub eco system for them and the poor suffer and die.

Think Jupiter Ascending but like... with more magic... and actually fun and interesting... and Sean Bean dies...

Could make for some interesting bloodsports - a coliseum where all fights are to the death and when you do inevitably die the viewing audience votes on if you get res'd or not.

[Ediwir]

AlastarOG wrote:

Man you could write an adventure path about a dystopian megacity where the rich are afranchised from death and have a whole sub eco system for them and the poor suffer and die.

Think Jupiter Ascending but like... with more magic... and actually fun and interesting... and Sean Bean dies...

What if Paizo already wrote an adventure dealing with a bunch of rich nobles who think themselves superior to the rule of death, and see as lesser those who subject themselves to Pharasma's tyranny...

...

...yeah, spoilers...

[AlastarOG]

Ediwir wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

Man you could write an adventure path about a dystopian megacity where the rich are afranchised from death and have a whole sub eco system for them and the poor suffer and die.

Think Jupiter Ascending but like... with more magic... and actually fun and interesting... and Sean Bean dies...

What if Paizo already wrote an adventure dealing with a bunch of rich nobles who think themselves superior to the rule of death, and see as lesser those who subject themselves to Pharasma's tyranny...

...

...yeah, spoilers...

Name please !

As for galt and france yeah I guess, it was more the ''getting conquered by imperialists and struggling for freedom'' part.

[Ixal]

What I forgot, rituals do not require spellcaster, so to raise someone from the dead (Ressurect or Reincarnate if you want to gamble with your ancestry) only requires a level 5 or 9 guy and two apprentices to cast it (although level 11 and 13 would be preferable to not need the whole body and have more time to cast it).
So you do not even need to suck up to any churches or need any deities favor besides Pharasma's