TLDR: Does a magic cloak have more HP than a mundane one?
OK people, I need your help.
In tonights session I did something reeaally stupid.
We're toward the end of book 4 of Iron Gods, and we just breezed through some pretty "tough" combats. We had about 3 encounters without taking any damage whatsoever. I mean I was smack-talking the GM about how we were going to kill his boss-monster in 1 round, and then I did ~230 damage in round 1 .
So we're exploring the last room in the dungeon and we're attacked by some swarms. No biggie, we have a wizard and I'm wearing a Swarmbame Clasp. I start goading the Gunslinger/Cleric into using his fire spells since I've never made use of Blood Sanctuary and I'm wearing a Ring of Fire Resistance . He gives in and hits the swarms and me with 20 points of fire damage.
Natural 1 on my Reflex save.
Thanks to my Ring of Fire Resistance I take only 10 points of damage - again no biggie, I have a lot of HP.
But then after the session I remember that Nat-1's on saves have special effects, so I message the GM and ask him to roll a d4 ...
Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
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Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
So I asked my GM to roll a d4 and gave him a list: 1-Armour, 2-Weapon, 3-Headband, 4-Cloak.
He rolls a 4.
That's my 24,000gp CLOAK OF DISPLACEMENT. The problem is that Cloth has 0 Hardness and 2HP per inch of thickness. And as far as I can tell being a hugely expensive magic item doesn't help this at all unless it's a weapon or armour.
So the attack did 20 fire damage. The Ring of Fire Resistance reduced it to 10 damage. Objects take half damage, so that reduces it to 5 damage, and saving against the spell would halve it again to 2 damage ... which is still just enough to completely destroy the most expensive thing I own -_-
Have I got anything wrong here? Do magic items increase in Hardness and HP? Is there a way for this save to avoid the damage entirely?
To be clear, my allies didn't want to shoot me, I completely goaded them into it. The GM isn't forcing this rule on me , I asked for it and got what I deserved =P
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Actually
Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks
Order* Item
1st Shield
2nd Armor
3rd Magic helmet, hat, or headband
4th Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like)
5th Magic cloak
6th Stowed or sheathed weapon
7th Magic bracers
8th Magic clothing
9th Magic jewelry (including rings)
10th Anything else
* In order of most likely to least likely to be affected.
It should have been whatever you were holding instead
Actually
Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks
Order* Item
1st Shield
2nd Armor
3rd Magic helmet, hat, or headband
4th Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like)
5th Magic cloak
...
It should have been whatever you were holding instead
My interpretation is that you delete the items that don't apply to you from that list, then go with the top 4 that do apply and roll a d4 on them. Since I don't have a shield I was left with the next for to roll on.
AFAIK, your cloak is gone. Being a magic item doesn't add hit points (armor and weapons are an exception).
On the other hand, it is a CL3 item, so if your cleric has at least a CL of 6 and has 2nd level spells, he can repair it with Make whole.
Yeah my GM showed me that as well. I thought "Destroyed" meant "gone forever", but apparently not. So it's not so bad. He's a Gunslinger-6/Cleric-6 so we're all good on that front.
*Phew*
So the attack did 20 fire damage. The Ring of Fire Resistance reduced it to 10 damage. Objects take half damage, so that reduces it to 5 damage, and saving against the spell would halve it again to 2 damage ... which is still just enough to completely destroy the most expensive thing I own -_-
So I did think maybe I did the order wrong. Should it be:
20 damage, Half for Objects, then apply Fire Resistance ?
Of course it's cloth, so the GM could rule that fire does full damage, but the save to halve the damage would apply first as well, so at the very least the save applies first and if successful halves the fire damage to 10, where the ring negates it?
That certainly sounds like the most exciting way to begin the next session, but am I just reading it how I want to?
So you think my original way of thinking was correct?
I'm not quite sure I'm convinced ...
The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.
But I'm not an expert, so I'm open here.
So you think my original way of thinking was correct?
I'm not quite sure I'm convinced ...
The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.But I'm not an expert, so I'm open here.
As an attended item, I would give the item whatever benefits the owner is benefitting from - in this case the fire resistance. Items worn by a creature are generally considered 'part' of the creature.
For an unattended magic item, if a ring of fire resistance were hit with a fireball for example, I'd certainly give it its fire resistance. An unattended cloak would of course receive no such fire reistance bonus.
But there are no such clear rules for any of the above. It would come down to what bonuses a GM determines an item receives by virtue of being an attended object. And whether that nat 1 roll by the PC which resulsts in the attended object even needing to make a save also voids any other protections it receives.
So you think my original way of thinking was correct?
I'm not quite sure I'm convinced ...
The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.But I'm not an expert, so I'm open here.
Since the item gets your original save before it has to make it's own save, then I would rule that items that protect you, protect them as well.
That's kind of how I see it TxSam88, but I can see that it isn't super spelled out.
I was more asking about the order of operations. My understanding is that half-damage from saves and half-damage from energy attacks on objects would be applied before applying hardness/DR/Energy-Resistance.
So it would be:
20 damage.
Half for a successful save = 10 damage
Half for damaging an object = 5 damage
Apply Fire Resistance:10 = 0 damage.
Rather than my original calculation which was:
20 damage
Apply Fire Resistance:10 = 10 damage
Half damage for the save = 5 damage
Half damage for damaging objects = 2 damage
Obviously if the Fire Resistance doesn't apply then at best it's still taking 5 damage, so that's the more important question now.
i would not give your cloak fire resistance thats bending it a bit too far IMO.
I really don't understand this.
The cloak is using my defences: My saves, my CMD, etc. Why would it change in this circumstance?
Let's say they player has cast Resist Energy on themselves to protect from fire and they're hit by a Fireball. If the Fireball doesn't deal enough damage to get through their energy resistance would you make them roll the save just to see if they get a 1?
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i would not give your cloak fire resistance thats bending it a bit too far IMO.I really don't understand this.
The cloak is using my defences: My saves, my CMD, etc. Why would it change in this circumstance?
Let's say they player has cast Resist Energy on themselves to protect from fire and they're hit by a Fireball. If the Fireball doesn't deal enough damage to get through their energy resistance would you make them roll the save just to see if they get a 1?
It gets your defenses if the cloak is the target, but when you are hit by an area spell, you are the target and use the defenses. If you fail the save with a natural 1, the spillover that passed those defenses hit the cloak. You don't get to use them twice.
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The fire resistance would apply after the save for sure. Not because I know that's what the rules say but because that's the only way that makes sense.
Since we are hitting grey area about applying the fire resistance to the cloak I would look a little farther into how you get fire resistance. If it's from an internal ability like a race or feat then I would say no. (If your skin is extra resistant to fire that doesn't protect the cloak). But fire resistance from magic I think of that as more of a protecting sphere around your whole body. So it blocks for damage against you and what your wearing.
that's a nice house rule but this is the rules form we talk in RAW in here. no where does it say your items gains your resistances. the only thing it says is that attended magic items can use your saves or their own whichever is better.
as a GM you can say. i think this should happen "just because". however that does not make it a real rule, just a house rule.
I am reasonably sure that it was specified in some rule or FAQ that the resistances, even the natural resistance, extend to your gear. Finding that rule/FAQ is a thing for when I have more time.
If your protections don't extend to your gear, things like a wall of fire become way more dangerous to your gear. It is damage applied without a save; if it is applied to your gear the gear get a save, but still take damage. You would lose all the items with low hardness and hit points.
So I thought about some similar abilities and it did put it in perspective. I wouldn't expect Stoneskin to give my items DR. It does seem reasonable that Resist Energy would work the same way.
So I think the RAW answer is that it doesn't work.
Also, I think this is an area where the rules let the players down.
Imagine a player came to a game and prepared Stoneskin, Protection from Energy etc on their character when fighting a Dragon. Then in the first round they're hit by dragon-fire, roll a 1 and lose their gear. This character prepared for this exact eventuality and yet they lose an expensive item because there's no way to protect their gear.
Seems dumb.
Bad things can happen to you, but punishing a player for not preparing after their character did in fact prepare seems stupid. I agree that you want to challenge your players, but this isn't a challenge, it's an arbitrary middle finger to someone just because the rules didn't cover this scenario very well.
There should be a way to prepare for this kind of eventuality.
I'm saying this as a GM by the way, not as a player
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So I thought about some similar abilities and it did put it in perspective. I wouldn't expect Stoneskin to give my items DR. It does seem reasonable that Resist Energy would work the same way.
So I think the RAW answer is that it doesn't work.
Also, I think this is an area where the rules let the players down.
Imagine a player came to a game and prepared Stoneskin, Protection from Energy etc on their character when fighting a Dragon. Then in the first round they're hit by dragon-fire, roll a 1 and lose their gear. This character prepared for this exact eventuality and yet they lose an expensive item because there's no way to protect their gear.
Seems dumb.
The player loses 1 item if he fails a save with a 1. And only if the item has suffered enough damage to be destroyed. Highly probable for cloaks, fairly difficult for armor and weapons. Our "average" magical greatsword with a +3 enhancement has Hardness 16 and 40 hp. It is not particularly vulnerable to fire. Get hit only by the damage that hit the character, so the energy resistance applies. 112 points of damage should be applied to our guy to destroy the weapon.
Edit: you need 224 hp of damage if the greatsword makes it's save. And it use the character save, if it is better than its.