Greetings folks,
I have been playing RPGs since the 80s :D but I am really struggling building my second Gestalt character. And, honestly, my DM did most of the heavy lifting in my first character. I am also prone in campaigns to make characters for fun and flavour rather than optimizing, so correction is welcomed.
So, I am building a Female Human Paladin/Bard, focus on buffing and healing but don't want to be fragile :D
Restrictions for this campaign:
You will begin level 1
You will have two traits to pick as part of character generation.
You may only pick from Core Classes. (Note Not using Unchained Classes)
NPC classes do not exist in this world
You may not ever have more than 4 classes so pick wisely
Starting spells must be from the Core Rulebook.
We will be using Background Skills
So far I have chosen:
Deity (homebrew):
Gadya NG Lady of Light Life Community, Good, Healing, Sun Cooperation, Friendship, Restoration, Light Spear
Stats (25 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 +2 for being human
Was thinking Focused Mind and Sacred Touch for Traits
Deny the Reaper and Magical Aptitude
Longsword and Leather armour (for now)
Is this a good mix?
Thank you kindly for any assistance :D
With a smile,
DreamQuestin
Are archetypes allowed? Is anything non-CRB allowed?
Only CRB and no Archetypes.
One of the biggest hurdles for Gestalt Characters to get over is that you have 2 classes-worth of abilities all competing for your action economy, and Bards and Paladins already have Swift+Move+Standard actions under high demand, and both classes are feat-starved enough as it is.
I would recommend going as Fighter/Bard, Rogue/Bard, or Paladin/Sorcerer if you want to play a fighty-healy-buffy cha-based caster type. You'll have considerably more feats/talents as a Fighter or Rogue + Bard, and if you go Paladin/Sorcerer, Sorcerers are less feat-dependent because they get bloodline feats AND they can shore up any lack of MM feats with Rods.
Paladin/Bard is doable, but you're cramming so much stuff into one package that you will find yourself underperforming at both classes.
I'd suggest Halfling, seems it would fit the homebrew god you have chosen, and while it might hamper your raw damage, the increased to hit, plus inspire courage and smite evil when needed will make up for that. Take fate's favored as one of your traits and have just ridiculous saves. Is light spear something special? If so and you can take weapon finesse with it, I'd do that and fight from dog-back
And you are set on human?
Races permitted: Human, Halfling, Half Elf, Half Orc, Gnome, Elf and Dwarf. Half Elf could work, but Human is usually more versatile, IMO?
I’d recommend dropping down either Str or Dex and focusing on one, moving your racial ability there too. 16 in your attack stat is on the low side. Healing in combat isn’t good.
With the inability to wear proper Paladin armour, throwing her into the frontline melee seems less than ideal too, doesn't it (no, she is no coward :D)?
Not arguing :D just trying to understand WHY the choices so I don't have to ask for so much help next time.
No archetypes?
For a healer/holy warrior type...
Cleric/Swashbuckler
For a buffer/warrior type...
Bard/Fighter or Bard/Cavalier or Bard/Ranger
Those combinations are full BAB with all good saves.
One of the biggest hurdles for Gestalt Characters to get over is that you have 2 classes-worth of abilities all competing for your action economy, and Bards and Paladins already have Swift+Move+Standard actions under high demand, and both classes are feat-starved enough as it is.
That is true enough. The truth is I originally chose Paladin/Bard with intent of following Cayden Cailean before learning there was homebrew deities. Thought it would be a lot of fun but have some serious ability too.
I would recommend going as Fighter/Bard, Rogue/Bard, or Paladin/Sorcerer if you want to play a fighty-healy-buffy cha-based caster type. You'll have considerably more feats/talents as a Fighter or Rogue + Bard, and if you go Paladin/Sorcerer, Sorcerers are less feat-dependent because they get bloodline feats AND they can shore up any lack of MM feats with Rods.
Paladin/sorcerer could be fun...the group really needs the heal/buff.
This will be three or four groups I suspect, but so far:
Monk-Sorcerer
Fighter-Cleric
Bard-Fighter
Cleric-Monk
Ranger-Sorcerer
Cleric-Rogue
Fighter-Rogue
Fighter-Rogue
Fighter-Wizard
Fighter-Wizard
Fighter-Cleric
Ranger-Cleric
Barbarian-Wizard
A lot of fighters :D
I'd suggest Halfling, seems it would fit the homebrew god you have chosen, and while it might hamper your raw damage, the increased to hit, plus inspire courage and smite evil when needed will make up for that. Take fate's favored as one of your traits and have just ridiculous saves. Is light spear something special? If so and you can take weapon finesse with it, I'd do that and fight from dog-back
I do love halflings. Have a Halfling Cavalier/Summoner in a tabletop game.
Sorry about the Light Spear confusion. Light is the last of the domains, Spear is her favoured weapon.
No archetypes?
No Archetypes
For a healer/holy warrior type...
Cleric/SwashbucklerFor a buffer/warrior type...
Bard/Fighter or Bard/Cavalier or Bard/Ranger
Only Core Classes so no Swashbuckler or Cavalier, mores the pity. I love both classes there :D
Bard/Ranger could be interesting...
if you went Halfling, I'd play an undercover Paladin. Go into places as teller of tales and singer of folk tunes, get a feeling for the place, see who is hurting others, who is hurting, get a lay of the land all the while playing the innocent minstrel routine. Then when badguy but needs to be kicked, throw off your colorful cloak revealing you shiny chain and steel and get to smiting!
Wow. Not a single Rogue/Wizard or Rogue/Sorcerer? Huh, those seem like they would go together quite well.
That Cleric/Monk has the right idea with Ki Channel and the Tea of Transference. Hopefully they take Scribe Scroll. Could rock Crusader's Flurry to Flurry with something fun, too.
Personally, I would probably keep Bard, but drop Paladin for Ranger. Still have full BAB, all good saves, 6/9 arcane casting, 4/9 divine casting... Favored Enemy/Instant Enemy is probably more reliable than Smite Evil, anyways.
And Ranger Combat Style feats!!!
One of the biggest hurdles for Gestalt Characters to get over is that you have 2 classes-worth of abilities all competing for your action economy, and Bards and Paladins already have Swift+Move+Standard actions under high demand, and both classes are feat-starved enough as it is.That is true enough. The truth is I originally chose Paladin/Bard with intent of following Cayden Cailean before learning there was homebrew deities. Thought it would be a lot of fun but have some serious ability too.
I would recommend going as Fighter/Bard, Rogue/Bard, or Paladin/Sorcerer if you want to play a fighty-healy-buffy cha-based caster type. You'll have considerably more feats/talents as a Fighter or Rogue + Bard, and if you go Paladin/Sorcerer, Sorcerers are less feat-dependent because they get bloodline feats AND they can shore up any lack of MM feats with Rods.Paladin/sorcerer could be fun...the group really needs the heal/buff.
This will be three or four groups I suspect, but so far:
Monk-Sorcerer
Fighter-Cleric
Bard-Fighter
Cleric-Monk
Ranger-Sorcerer
Cleric-Rogue
Fighter-Rogue
Fighter-Rogue
Fighter-Wizard
Fighter-Wizard
Fighter-Cleric
Ranger-Cleric
Barbarian-WizardA lot of fighters :D
Paladin/Sorcerer has amazing synergy by going with ability score priority: Cha >>> Str=Con=Dex > Int=Wis. With maxed out starting Cha of 20, your Smites will absolutely wreck faces right out of the gate, and it only gets better once you're lvl 11 and you give Smite to your whole party-- and you'll start out with max amount of Sorc spells per day. At level 2, you get Cha to all your Saves and max amount of LoH's per day (6x per day at lvl 2), and this makes you super durable. And if/when you do decide to get offensive with your spells, your DC's will be top shelf.
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I'd suggest Halfling, seems it would fit the homebrew god you have chosen, and while it might hamper your raw damage, the increased to hit, plus inspire courage and smite evil when needed will make up for that. Take fate's favored as one of your traits and have just ridiculous saves. Is light spear something special? If so and you can take weapon finesse with it, I'd do that and fight from dog-back
It's too bad that archetypes aren't allowed, because a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish Bard would be a great fit.
I'd suggest Halfling, seems it would fit the homebrew god you have chosen, and while it might hamper your raw damage, the increased to hit, plus inspire courage and smite evil when needed will make up for that. Take fate's favored as one of your traits and have just ridiculous saves. Is light spear something special? If so and you can take weapon finesse with it, I'd do that and fight from dog-backIt's too bad that archetypes aren't allowed, because a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish Bard would be a great fit.
That's funny... I have a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish-Songhealer Bard VMC Paladin. Lol.
Gah my post apparently didn't go through =P
Short version: I think Paladin/Bard would be fine. The only weakness is the lack of bonus feats. Either take a combat-style that doesn't use many feats (eg. 2-handed weapon), or pump all your feats into your combat style, and accept that it'll be a little subpar to begin with.
For stats you don't need more than 16 CHA. I'd put it at 16, then leave it there forever and improve it by getting a headband. For main stat I'd say STR is the easiest for melee, starting at 16 would be fine.
You probably won't use Inspire Courage much in early levels. By level 5 a +2 to hit/damage is maybe worth a standsrd action, and by level 7 it's definitely worth a move action (Inspire-Courage plus Haste is a great use of a turn).
For armour you want to aim for a Mithral Breastplate - no arcane spell failure for a bard.
Too bad archetypes aren't allowed... Arcane Duelist Bard/Vanilla Paladin is the golden ticket...
Bard/Paladin is going to be one of my favorites, though... if you can stomach being a Paladin. The Auras, buff spells, and Performances you can pump out are legit. Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos and Shaman's Apprentice and the obvious Fate's Favored... +2 Luck bonus to all saves, Endurance, Darkvision, access to a Bite attack because you are using a Reach weapon... you can be near untouchable, and carry the biggest bullseye on your back... Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Flagbearer are all you really need to pull it off. Fly the Banner of Ancient Kings from your Longspear or Bardiche or whatever...
Any enemy with an Intelligence of 5+ is going to recognize the Bard/Paladin as THE guy that HAS to go... such a character makes everyone so much better, you have to get that buffer off the board... so being tough is good, you will need it.
Paladin/Bard is a good combination if you are limited to core with no archetypes that is actually one of the better combinations. This combination gets full BAB, all good saves and CHA to saves, Immunity to multiple conditions, and swift action healing. This is going to be one of the least fragile characters you can build.
If you are focusing on buffing and healing then you don’t really have to worry to much about pumping the DC of your spells. If you go human you can get 8 skill points per level plus 2 for background skills. As a bard you will also get versatile performance and bardic lore. This is going to give you a huge advantage on skills. That being said I would suggest altering your starting stats to STR 18 (including +2 for human), DEX 14, CON 14. INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14. You will eventually want a 16 CHA to get access to 5th & 6th level bard spells, but that can come later.
Shoot for a mithral breastplate for armor. Don’t forget a shield if you are using a long sword.
Sacred touch is fine for a trait but I would not bother with focused mind. If you are doing mostly buffs and healing a lot of your spells will be done out of combat, or at least at the beginning of combat. Bards have some very long lasting buffs so chances are you will be able to prebuff instead of doing it in combat. Armor expert would be a better choice. That would eliminate the ACP when you get the mithral breastplate, and more importantly it reduces the penalty at early levels.
Between Sacred Touch, Lay on Hands and paladin spells you probably won’t need much mundane healing so Deny the Reaper does not really do much. Magical Aptitude really does not do that much. Prodigy would be a better choice since you will be using your perform skill for two other skills. If you really want to go crazy you could take skill focus with the perform skill you will be using as your first versatile performance. Acting would be a good choice for this as it would mean you have a sky high Diplomacy and Sense Motive at 2nd level. If you do that you could also go for a half Elf instead of a human. If not power attack would be a good choice.
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If you're using traits, Irrepressible is worth considering. It would give you a big bonus to the saves you really don't want to fail.
In a world of only core classes, no archetypes, but GESTALT... and there are no Barbarian/Druids? No Druid/Monks? Not a single Druid/Ranger? Amazing...
A Bard/Cleric could focus on Wisdom for Cleric stuffs, keep up with Bard casting/Channel/Charisma with items and $#!+, and literaly just be another 3/4 BAB, all good saves, all the buffs ever, 6/9 Arcane & 9/9 Divine, "average" Joe...
Not single Druid? Interesting... they can be quite versatile.
Bard/Paladin:
1. Cantrips/Spells
1. Bardic Knowledge
1. Bardic Performance
... Countersong
... Distraction
... Fascinate
... Inspire Courage +1
1. Aura (Good)
1. Detect Evil
1. Smite Evil 1/day
1(level): Combat Reflexes
2. Versatile Performance
2. Well-Versed
2. Divine Grace
2. Lay On Hands
3. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Competence +2
3. Aura of Courage
3. Divine Health
3. Mercy
3(level): Bodyguard
4. Channel Energy
4. Smite Evil 2/day
5. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Courage +2
5. Lore Master 1/day
5. Divine Bond
5(level): Flagbearer
6. Bardic Performance
... Suggestion
6. Versatile Performance
6. Mercy
7. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Competence +3
7. Smite Evil 3/day
7(level): Arcane Strike
8. Bardic Performance
... Dirge of Doom
8. Aura of Resolve
9. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Greatness
9. Mercy
9(level): Greater Mercy
10. Jack of all Trades
10. Versatile Performance
10. Smite Evil 4/day
11. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Competence +4
... Inspire Courage +3
11. Lore Master 2/day
11. Aura of Justice!!!
11(level): Divine Interference
12. Bardic Performance
... Soothing Performance
12. Mercy
13. Smite Evil 5/day
13(level): Weapon Focus
14. Bardic Performance
... Frightening Tune
14. Versatile Performance
14. Aura of Faith
15. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Competence +5
... Inspire Heroics
15. Mercy
15(level): Weapon Versatility
16. Smite Evil 6/day
17. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Courage +4
17. Lore Master 3/day
17. Aura of Righteousness
17(level): Ultimate Mercy
18. Bardic Performance
... Mass Suggestion
18. Versatile Performance
18. Mercy
19. Bardic Performance
... Inspire Competence +6
19. Smite Evil 7/day
19(level):
20. Bardic Performance
... Deadly Performance
20. Holy Champion
Obviously use the Banner of Ancient Kings... Get the Gloves of Arcane Striking as soon as you get the feat...
Short version: I think Paladin/Bard would be fine. The only weakness is the lack of bonus feats. Either take a combat-style that doesn't use many
<much goodness deleted solely for brevity>
You probably won't use Inspire Courage much in early levels. By level 5 a +2 to hit/damage is maybe worth a standard action, and by level 7 it's definitely worth a move action (Inspire-Courage plus Haste is a great use of a turn).
Some shifting of stats and some good advice. Thank You.
For armour you want to aim for a Mithral Breastplate - no arcane spell failure for a bard.
Oh yeah! That is the dream :D
Thank you very kindly for the tips!
The fun thing about gestalt, especially in a homebrew setting, isn't so much that you're that much more powerful, it's the versatility.
I always thought so, but it seems you and I are in the minority :D
My group has played almost exclusively gestalt over the past 5 or so years, and your build looks pretty decent to me. We do rolled stats, so point buy goes over my head a bit. That being said, only thing I might recommend or echo is don't put your racial bonus in CHA. A 16 is plenty, especially since you plan on focusing to buffs and healing; DC's just aren't going to matter for you much.
Thank you. This is one of the first point buy games I have done. My own games have a more or less 'choose your stats' with some guidelines. I have some of the absolute worst luck in rolling dice, most GMs take pity on me :D
I'd say put the bonus into Str or Dex depending on your prefered combat style. Also, unless you really need the extra skill point, drop your INT to an 11 or 10 and take the points that gives you to boost the other physical combat stat, or your CON. With gestalt you get the better of every option, (except armor prof.) so you're already getting the bards respectable skill points.
This (changing the CHA to bump Dex or Str) seems to be largely consensus and I will be doing so.
Love the pairing by the way. I'm envisioning a more divine style skald, or maybe a cantor who kicks @**. Either way pretty cool.
I do think she is going to be a great deal of fun!
Last thought, do Bards suffer from Arcane spell failure? If not, than your only a feat away from being back in heavy armor if you want it.
They do, but I am assured that the work arounds will save my bacon :)
Thank you very kindly for the assistance!
if you went Halfling, I'd play an undercover Paladin. Go into places as teller of tales and singer of folk tunes, get a feeling for the place, see who is hurting others, who is hurting, get a lay of the land all the while playing the innocent minstrel routine. Then when badguy but needs to be kicked, throw off your colorful cloak revealing you shiny chain and steel and get to smiting!
I may just take that advice :)! Sounds like such a unique character view, and such fun!
thank you for your assistance
Too bad archetypes aren't allowed... Arcane Duelist Bard/Vanilla Paladin is the golden ticket...
That would be a pretty special character right there!
Bard/Paladin is going to be one of my favorites, though... if you can stomach being a Paladin. The Auras, buff spells, and Performances you can pump out are legit. Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos and <much deleted gold for brevity>
Bard/Paladin as THE guy that HAS to go... such a character makes everyone so much better, you have to get that buffer off the board... so being tough is good, you will need it.
Nice imaging there too! I had a mental image of a gaggle of goblins all stopping in unison, pointing and attacking LOL
Thank you for your assistance!
Bard/Paladin:
1. Cantrips/Spells
1. Bardic Knowledge
1. Bardic Performance
...
I love this, it was a great breakdown.
There are two things I would add to that list to make it complete:
7. Bardic Performance (move action)
...
13. Bardicc Performance (swift/move action)
These are important milestones for the bard, they imrove your action economy greatly.
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The fun thing about gestalt, especially in a homebrew setting, isn't so much that you're that much more powerful, it's the versatility.I always thought so, but it seems you and I are in the minority :D
we've been playing with Gestalt since the option was first introduced. New players are always a little put off by it, and many think it will make for characters that are too powerful. We then explain, while there are some combinations of passive abilities that can make for more powerful characters, because of action economy, it's not as broke as first appears. It's all about adding more options. So instead of I just swing my sword, sing my song, or cast my spell, a character will other ways of tackling an encounter.
I love gestalt.
You can paint a picture, tell a story, with nothing but class features coming together in twisted harmony.
Sure, you can build a murderhobo, but you can do that with a 15pt buy and CRB-only... gestalt isn't going to suddenly turn the average character into anything especially scary.
I got to play a Kobold Cleric/UnMonk... it was probably the most fun I have had with a character. Probably never would have played with that race or either of those classes in any other circumstance.
I have an entire folder of racial archetypes gestalted together to form the quintessential version of that race...
Example:
Catfolk
Nimble Guardian-MoMS Monk/
Cat Burglar-Dark Lurker-Makeshift Scrapper UnRogue
Tengu
Shigenjo Oracle/
Investigator-Scout-Swordmaster UnRogue
And the Kitsune has options...
UnRogue:
- Bandit, Kitsune Trickster, Underground Chemist
Sorcerer:
- Eldritch Scrapper, Nine Tailed Heir
For more "wild" feel, use;
UnRogue:
- Heister, Kitsune Trickster
Sorcerer:
- Nine Tailed Heir
For more "Rogue" feel, use;
UnRogue:
- Kitsune Trickster, Seeker of the Lost
Sorcerer:
- Nine Tailed Heir, Seeker
Sure, the Zen Archer/Inquisitor and the Slayer/Warpriest can deal damages, but it's just damage. Their flying carpet was a bigger problem than them ever being gestalt. Lol.