Do you want to be near first on initiative position?

[cloa513]

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

[HumbleGamer]

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

I think it comes down to the party order and your class.

For example, as a blaster I'd like to be high in initiative, to blast before my melee charge.

Same goes for a champion.
I'd like to get my reaction asap, so I'd try to have high modifiers.

In adjunct, another thing to consider is the environment. Being on an urban settlement ( houses, streets, etc,) might probably mean that you can reach out your enemies with a single stride action, while if you were into the wilderness you would probably require more speed ( then would be up to you whether to wait for your enemies to come or to charge them. For example, facing casters or archers would be different than fighting barbarians).

High initiative party with a battle oracle shines in terms of possibilities.

[cloa513]

HumbleGamer wrote:

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

I think it comes down to the party order and your class.

For example, as a blaster I'd like to be high in initiative, to blast before my melee charge.

Same goes for a champion.
I'd like to get my reaction asap, so I'd try to have high modifiers.

In adjunct, another thing to consider is the environment. Being on an urban settlement ( houses, streets, etc,) might probably mean that you can reach out your enemies with a single stride action, while if you were into the wilderness you would probably require more speed ( then would be up to you whether to wait for your enemies to come or to charge them. For example, facing casters or archers would be different than fighting barbarians).

High initiative party with a battle oracle shines in terms of possibilities.

For clarification, your character does he want to first in initiative?

[The Gleeful Grognard]

you can always delay whenever you don't want to be first, but you can never increase your initiative.

The only hangup on going early is if the enemy's stealth initiative beats your perception DC but not your initiative roll. But it is a rare circumstance and you can still delay if you would be in a dangerous location and not traveling.

[HumbleGamer]

cloa513 wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

I think it comes down to the party order and your class.

For example, as a blaster I'd like to be high in initiative, to blast before my melee charge.

Same goes for a champion.
I'd like to get my reaction asap, so I'd try to have high modifiers.

In adjunct, another thing to consider is the environment. Being on an urban settlement ( houses, streets, etc,) might probably mean that you can reach out your enemies with a single stride action, while if you were into the wilderness you would probably require more speed ( then would be up to you whether to wait for your enemies to come or to charge them. For example, facing casters or archers would be different than fighting barbarians).

High initiative party with a battle oracle shines in terms of possibilities.

For clarification, your character does he want to first in initiative?

Yes.

There are only advantages ( my considerations were towards "investing" in high initiative bonuses or not ).

If you act first you gain your reaction, can decide to delay your initiative, prepare a ready action in response to enemy moves or simply act before they does ( for example you might benefit from the flat footed condition if you are a rogue or have the rogue dedication ).

[Temperans]

Generally, casters want to go first so that they can buff, debuffn or use whatever AoE spell they have.

Martials however generally want to go after casters but before the enemy. This lets them benefit from the buffs and hopefully kill the enemy faster.

But there might be some condition that might be benefitted from going last. Like say a healer to ensure the party is up at the end of the turn.

[The Raven Black]

If you are a melee martial, it can be better not to go first. This way you benefit from buffs and when facing melee opponents (the most frequent situation), they waste some of their actions to reach you. While you start with the enemy within reach and all your actions available. And with your friends not too far, which has benefits too.

[Castilliano]

Note that Reactions do not necessarily rely on having taken a turn. That's PF1 thinking. In PF2 it's gray, and subject to GM adjudication whether one can take a Reaction before going. The way I read it, I'd lean toward the PC getting a Reaction unless something untoward prevented that, like being beat by Stealth.

Good initiative is better than bad, right? So everybody wants to go first (since they have the option of going middle or last anyway). But I wouldn't bother investing in it mainly because there are so many better investments. An incremental increase in 1 roll per combat that you often end up ignoring anyway due to tactical considerations vs. extra h.p./speed/etc. does not seem worthwhile.
Of course for some PCs the investment comes for free with other abilities they're boosting, like Stealth.

We had one campaign where a guy who had high initiative would predictably go first (despite the odds w/ so many creatures) and the enemies would predictably go second. It became so routine our PCs came to expect it when making plans, mainly by telling him "DON'T GO FORWARD ALONE!" because he'd get wrecked, often just a touch out of healing range (and he so disliked disengaging due to injury). This RPing was also in response to the player using RPing as an excuse for aggressive (read: poor) tactics.
Thankfully he started carrying a missile weapon for that first volley before melee. :) Can't recall if he ever learned not to be 5' further than the healer could reach.

[TwilightKnight]

cloa513 wrote:

...do you want be early on initiative to act first?

Ir is generally better to go before your enemies when lives are at stake so investing in high initiative is a good idea. Having choices is always better than not having choices and by winning the initiative battle you have more choices.

Castilliano wrote:

Note that Reactions do not necessarily rely on having taken a turn.

That is true according to the CRB, but it certainly depends on your campaign. It is GM discretion. If you participate in a lot of org play you will find it commonplace for reactions not to be granted until your first turn. Expect table variation.

[Ascalaphus]

The Raven Black wrote:

If you are a melee martial, it can be better not to go first. This way you benefit from buffs and when facing melee opponents (the most frequent situation), they waste some of their actions to reach you. While you start with the enemy within reach and all your actions available. And with your friends not too far, which has benefits too.

I think there's a distinction between "closing in first" and "getting the first turn".

It's reasonable not to always close first. You don't want to break ranks, get surrounded, spend two actions to close while enemies then get to be the first to use a 2+ action special attack etcetera.

But if you get a turn first, you still have the option of not actually closing in, and doing something else. Drink a potion, activate an item, maybe use a cantrip, raise a shield, move just a little bit. And then they have to spend actions to close in and you can be the first to use fancy 2+ action attacks.

The key to making it work well is that whatever "filler" action you use doesn't hinder your second round. So I wouldn't like to use a bow, because that's a lot of drawing different weapons. A cantrip like Ray of Frost however can be done hands-free. And it signifies to enemies "if you don't come over here, I'm gonna whittle you down at no risk to myself".

[Ascalaphus]

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

I think it's almost never bad to have high initiative, because you can Delay to lower it if that would be better. Winning initiative gives you all the options of not winning, and more.

That said, I don't think it's equally valuable for every PC. As in, for some characters it's so good that it's worth investing heavily in, whereas for other PCs it's less so.

A bard for example that wins initiative can Inspire Courage or use a Dirge of Doom before others get to act and that's really helpful. Basically anyone casting buffs or debuffs, or using Recall Knowledge to find out important stuff like "don't use electric arc on that ooze that looks like it has weak Reflex, you'll split it".

Someone who's mostly expecting to "stand and receive" doesn't get quite as much out of it. Likewise, a rogue who's counting on flanking probably wants to wait until after some other people take positions anyway. Although their Surprise Attack class feature can help bridge that particular gap.

[cloa513]

Ascalaphus wrote:

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

I think it's almost never bad to have high initiative, because you can Delay to lower it if that would be better. Winning initiative gives you all the options of not winning, and more.

That said, I don't think it's equally valuable for every PC. As in, for some characters it's so good that it's worth investing heavily in, whereas for other PCs it's less so.

A bard for example that wins initiative can Inspire Courage or use a Dirge of Doom before others get to act and that's really helpful. Basically anyone casting buffs or debuffs, or using Recall Knowledge to find out important stuff like "don't use electric arc on that ooze that looks like it has weak Reflex, you'll split it".

Someone who's mostly expecting to "stand and receive" doesn't get quite as much out of it. Likewise, a rogue who's counting on flanking probably wants to wait until after some other people take positions anyway. Although their Surprise Attack class feature can help bridge that particular gap.

That is why I didn't say high initiative roll.

[Matthew Downie]

A buffer wants to act first. A buff-receiver probably wants to act after the buffers, but (more importantly) before the enemies act.

This assumes that both sides are making intelligent use of their turns. For example, if two opposing sword-wielders start a long way apart, and whoever goes first foolishly spends their entire turn moving into melee range, then whoever acts second will get to attack first. But if the one who acts first does something useful (making a ranged attack or whatever) then acting before the enemy will almost always be better.

[voideternal]

There's value to beating your opponent's initiative, but you still want to act in the right order between your teammates.

There's value to having a high initiative modifier, but it comes with an opportunity cost - scouting activity is a different activity not taken. Initiative feats are different feats not taken. Goggles of night is a different item not taken.

Even if you beat an opponent's initiative, there are various battlefield / opponent variations where delaying after your opponent might make sense or might not. Striding three times into your opponents' melee reach is probably a bad idea, but delaying a turn only to realize the monster's primary attack is ranged is also a poor outcome.

[SuperBidi]

cloa513 wrote:

Assuming you are far from the enemies, do you want be early on initiative to act first or want to be later to respond to enemies or other fellow team members?

Most martial classes have preparatory actions: Stances, Rage, Drawing Weapons, Hunt Prey, etc... So when acting first you don't lose half your first round of combat activating all you need.

Also, I love readying a Flurry of Blows or a Twin Takedown. It allows me to have a full turn of attacks at the enemy initiative and still keep my high Initiative for second round. I might even be able to land 2 rounds of attacks on an enemy who will just attack once in between.