If a player is a 9th tier mythic character with divine score (choosing magic with divine sub domain), can they spam their daily use of miracle over time to gain a +5 inherent bonus to all their stats?
Honestly, if you're a 9th mythic tier character does it even matter?
But to give you a real answer, no. In order for ability score increases to stack, I believe you need to be able to cast all the casting successively.
Meaning to get a +5 you would need 5 castings of miracle in succession, not across multiple days.
Otherwise a 17th level cleric could do the same over 5 days.
Technically, Miracle doesn't explicitly say you can even increase your ability scores. That something Wish outlines as possible, which is available to Arcane casters.
Though most people will allow you to do the same things with Wish/Miracle, though it probably falls under the version of Miracle that requires paying with money.
what you do is craft it into something like a scroll and then use 5 scrolls at once.(i say scroll specifically ,that you skip paying with your ability)
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A 9th tier Mortal Herald of a deity with a domain that includes wish or miracle can use that spell as a spell-like ability as many times per day as they have uses of Mythic Power.
A 9th tier Mortal Herald of a deity with a domain that includes wish or miracle can use that spell as a spell-like ability as many times per day as they have uses of Mythic Power.
WOW did not catch that. Thanks. Would Miracle need the 25,000 gp of diamond dust, since it is being cast as a spell like ability?
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You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
It all depends on the opinion of your deity about the Miracle required.
Raising your caster stat by the max value? Probably ok.
Several deities will be Ok with raising another stat by the max value, but I doubt most of them would be Ok raising all the stats by +5.
You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.It all depends on the opinion of your deity about the Miracle required.
Raising your caster stat by the max value? Probably ok.
Several deities will be Ok with raising another stat by the max value, but I doubt most of them would be Ok raising all the stats by +5.
The "Deity" in question is one of the players. Mythic with Divine source. Who is all on board to boosting all the party/cohorts/Animal companions.
I am just going to ban having another player be the mortal herald of another player. So they can not spam miracle for stat gain.
They would then have to make manuals to get the +5 boosts they want. Which they will...
Thanks for your help everyone!
You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.It all depends on the opinion of your deity about the Miracle required.
Raising your caster stat by the max value? Probably ok.
Several deities will be Ok with raising another stat by the max value, but I doubt most of them would be Ok raising all the stats by +5.The "Deity" in question is one of the players. Mythic with Divine source. Who is all on board to boosting all the party/cohorts/Animal companions.
I am just going to ban having another player be the mortal herald of another player. So they can not spam miracle for stat gain.
They would then have to make manuals to get the +5 boosts they want. Which they will...
Thanks for your help everyone!
Wait, if you're the GM you can just say "Hey guys, I'm not going to allow this to work. You can buy the tomes if you want, but you're not getting this benefit without payment. (You're overpowered enough already)."
Sometimes it okay for a GM to disallow something, even if the rules might technically allow it.
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There's a few things you may want to consider:
1. This might be debatable, but it appears crafting a tome using miracle as an SLA doesn't actually save you any money. The materials are actually used in the construction of the book, not in the casting of the spell during construction.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation.
Even if you are using the normal spell version of wish to craft the tome, you don't spend the money because you are using the spell, you spend it because it's bound up in the book for whoever uses it.
2. Even with the Mythic Crafter path ability, crafting tomes takes a while. I think I estimated 1 month for a +5 book.
3. The rules for granting bonuses using wish say that they have to be cast in immediate succession but not that they have to come from the same caster. So if you have 5 players with miracle as an SLA, they can just cast in succession to grant a +5 bonus.
4. If you want to work with your player to create a Deific Obedience, it might be amusing for one or more of the other players to be an Exalted of that player. Who get a once-per-day use of domain spells as an SLA. If you're feeling particularly generous/silly, the player could maybe even be an Exalted of himself.
Keep in mind, Miracle still doesn't allow raising stats, meaning even if the GM was willing to let you skip the hurdle of miracle only being able to duplicate =<7th level non-cleric spell, you are still required to provide the material component of the spell. Meaning if you want to use Wish's inherent bonus, you are still providing a 25,000gp singular diamond (not diamond dust).
As an SLA, that's different, because SLA and they don't have components, otherwise, yes Miracle has situational material components because, unlike wish, it's default free.
Honestly, skipping expensive material components via SLA was always kind of BS anyways.
In the case of Miracle it's unclear how it should work anyways because the cost of diamonds isn't a base part of the spell, but rather to get greater effect. I think in this case you could validly rule it still cost the money.
More generally I've ruled that SLAs don't skip expensive material components, it's basically tantamount to Eschew Material components feat.
Well, technically the expensive material components required become a material component of the miracle, so it is a real material component. In the case of wish, the diamond is already a real, non-optional part of component.
And yeah, I can see that for PCs or just non-ultralimited use SLA's or even putting a restriction to what the SLA can accomplish to not include those ultra expensive uses, but for monsters, many of them have things like truesight or other SLAs with expensive material components, and it'd be really weird if you came along a demon with a ton of eye droppers in its... back pocket.
There's a few things you may want to consider:
1. This might be debatable, but it appears crafting a tome using miracle as an SLA doesn't actually save you any money.
I use Dynamic crafting rules for thing in my games, so it has the whole party involved in crafting.
As such, the price of a +5 tome could be 34,375 gp & made in a dayish, if they make all their checks.
On top of that the crafter in question is a psychic who can use the "item of equivalent value or more" as a substitute for straight crafting "gold". So at this point in the campaign they are rolling in loot to do just that.
It all depends on the opinion of your deity about the Miracle required.
Raising your caster stat by the max value? Probably ok.
Several deities will be Ok with raising another stat by the max value, but I doubt most of them would be Ok raising all the stats by +5.
That is hardly a logical argument. What the gods do in your campaign will be vastl different from what they do in mine. This this isn't a matter of hard and fast rules.
Wait, if you're the GM you can just say "Hey guys, I'm not going to allow this to work...Sometimes it okay for a GM to disallow something, even if the rules might technically allow it.I am just going to ban having another player be the mortal herald of another player..
I'll take that a step further. It's your game. Make whatever rule adjudication you feel you need to. Throw the rulebook out the window if you want.
Although it hardly seems like a few odd +'s here and there will hardly matter with the power level of this game.
yeah, I don't think another +2/+3 is going to make much of a difference in a 9th tier mythic game. But it's a nice capstone to say; "I got my Wisdom to a 49!" or whatever.
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I use Dynamic crafting rules for thing in my games, so it has the whole party involved in crafting.
As such, the price of a +5 tome could be 34,375 gp & made in a dayish, if they make all their checks.
With the usual caveat of "it's your game, so you're doing it right no matter what the rules say":
A +5 tome has a price of 137,500. Using Dynamic Crafting Rules, that would take 138 days. There would be a total of 30 challenges (counting the Base Challenges). So you would initially set the challenges at one every four days or so. If they critically succeed on the "Prepare the Vessel" check, then it's down to 69 days. For 29 remaining challenges, so 2 or 3 days per check.
So the earliest they would be attempting the second check is day 3 (or 4, but I'll use the most generous times here). The best results in the suggested challenges is -3 days, so lets say they critically succeed on the second challenge for -3 days (on day 3). Now they're down to 28 checks in 63 remaining days. Third check on day 5, -3 days result. 27 checks in 58 remaining days. Fourth check on day 7, -3 days result. 26 checks in 53 days. Fifth check on day 9. Etc.
I didn't do the math out all the way, in part because it's going to depend on whether you let them choose the challenges or assign random ones (which may not reduce time) and whether they can repeat challenges once they use up all the -3 days challenges suggested. Even in the most generous case, I think it's probably still going to take around 20 days to craft the tome.
Although it hardly seems like a few odd +'s here and there will hardly matter with the power level of this game.
True, hence why I am not putting my foot down and disallowing it. It has been fun high power romp, but wanted to know what was RAW. Know the rule to break it as it were.
I think it's probably still going to take around 20 days to craft the tome.
At my table we do crafting in "nebulous down time" especially for this mythic game. So we do all the skill checks at once and see how many days it would take. We run the totals and then work out how many days it took, what happened during those day (pop up encounters/skill challenges, and finish the item.
With 30 challenges, A mythic crafter build, a divine forge,on hand "Signs from the Gods" (they are a literal quartet of demi gods), and not using challenges that straight up reduce cost pat 25%. They can complete items super fast.
Is it straight RAW, no. But it works for our table for the most part, it is the mythic stuff that causes it to really break down.
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That is hardly a logical argument. What the gods do in your campaign will be vastl different from what they do in mine. This this isn't a matter of hard and fast rules.It all depends on the opinion of your deity about the Miracle required.
Raising your caster stat by the max value? Probably ok.
Several deities will be Ok with raising another stat by the max value, but I doubt most of them would be Ok raising all the stats by +5.
What the gods are willing to do for their clergy is the province of the GM, but that don't mean that the spell isn't limited by the (in game) god. It mean that there isn't any rule saying that the GM can't deny a wish simply saying "deus non vis".
Put another way, what Miracle say is that the result of the spell is totally a decision of the deity as managed by the GM (barring Mythic powers that give the ability to grant spells).
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When crafting a magic item with an expensive material component, do you include the expensive material components when determining the craft time? A normal 9th level scroll would is worth 3825 gp, which is craftable in 4 days. However, a scroll of wish is 28825 gp because of the 25000 gp diamond material component. Do you include the 25000 gp and increase the craft time by over 7 fold, or do you skip that and only worry about crafting the scroll?
You do include the material component when determining craft time.
Craft time is based on the price of the item. (The final price includes that material component cost.)
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When crafting a magic item with an expensive material component, do you include the expensive material components when determining the craft time? A normal 9th level scroll would is worth 3825 gp, which is craftable in 4 days. However, a scroll of wish is 28825 gp because of the 25000 gp diamond material component. Do you include the 25000 gp and increase the craft time by over 7 fold, or do you skip that and only worry about crafting the scroll?You do include the material component when determining craft time.
Craft time is based on the price of the item. (The final price includes that material component cost.)
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof ), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.
To determine the crafting time you use the base price, not the final, market price.
The costly components are a separated part of the market price, but not part of the base price.It is something that I realized only while checking the cost and time needed to make gem of wishes years ago.
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Huh, I think you're right. The confusing part to me is still this:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
I always read that as "the item will have two entries (base cost and total cost) if they are different." But now I don't think that's correct. I don't see any wondrous item entries that have two costs (base and total). That last sentence could be better written as "Descriptions of all items give the total cost of creating the item an the market price, not the base price."
Annoyingly, this means you have to reverse engineer everything.
Interesting extension because of this rule: if you're selling magic items you can make money more quickly by only making items that have expensive material components. A Flesh Golem manual sells for 8,000 gp and includes spells with 1,675 gp of material components, so you can make it in the time it would take to make a 6,325 gp item. An amulet of natural armor +2 also sells for 8,000 gp, but that is also the base price. Both items have a total cost of 4,000 gp to make.
Not true, those material components aren't halved when you're making the item yourself, they're just extra costs. The wish scroll example is a 3,825gp item with a 25,000gp component. The completed scroll is worth 28,825gp and the cost to make the scroll is 26,912.5gp. Compare that with a regular 9th level scroll value of 3,825gp and 1,912.5gp to make and you have the same difference of 1,912.5gp between the making and sell price from the same amount of time to make.
I'm also not sure where you're getting any of that math for a flesh golem manual. The spells aren't actually cast during crafting, they are just infused with no cost and consume slots on the day of crafting, meaning A) there is no expenditure and B) you're math is completely wrong for a flesh golem even if A wasn't true (1,500gp diamond from limited wish and 225gp from animate dead). Because there's no cost in the spells needed as part of the requirements of crafting a particular item (including a construct) there's no extra cost in creating a manual of X Golem, meaning there's no difference in trying to make a manual or an amulet of natural armor for making money (save the fine details of CL and the actual DC to determine if you can rush the crafting, in which case the amulet wins as it has just one component spell).
Also, unless you're using some downtime rules (or that cheese trait), you sell items for the same cost as you make them.
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Awesomeness:
My previous post was in response to Diego pointing out that the market price of a flesh golem manual is 8,000 gp but the base price is only 6,275 gp. So it can be made faster than an amulet of natural armor +2, even though they have the same cost to make.
I said "you" and that was inexact. When I said "you" I meant "an in-world merchant" not a PC. Who would be able to make the items faster and therefore sell more in a given period of time. It is correct that PCs would not make money doing this.
(Also you are correct on my math. For some reason I had a flesh golem as a 7HD creature. It is 9HD.)
Except you're still wrong about the base price. There are no material components of the book, the cost is equal to base value and the cost to craft is half of both of those. Even if there were a material component with cost, you gain no profit from it when you sell it because you pay the full value of the material component to craft it and there's no difference factor.