I could really use some help from the optimization gurus out there.
I'm currently playing a character in a campaign that's hit level 9. When the group was originally formed, it was more a collection of silly/fun characters that were all not optimized at all - we were just playing around and not going nuts or anything.
Nearly all of those players are gone, and the ones in there now are better at optimizing. It's still fun, don't get me wrong - it is just that my character is the only original one still around and I'd like it if they don't get left in the dust.
Here's what I already have:
Inspired Blade 7 / Negotiator 2 (I originally thought I'd be going Negotiator almost entirely)
Stats:
Str 12
Dex 22
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 20
Saves:
Fort 11 / Ref 23 / Will 13
AC: 27
HP: 66
Initiative: +9
Attacks: +23/+18, 1d6+13
Traits:
Well-Provisioned Adventurer (because I was the "tank" to start and felt I needed better gear to survive that role)
Trap Finder (we don't have a rogue or investigator)
Alabaster Odalisque
Attached (Drawback)
Feats:
Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse: Rapier, Improved Critical (Class features)
Weapon Versatility
Fencing Grace (learned as a rogue trick - see Negotiator)
Combat Reflexes
Craft Wondrous Item
Master Craftsman
**Unselected 9th level feat - leaning towards Countenanced Carbuncle possibly**
Special abilities:
Pageant of the Peacock - sacrificed feat for this (special note - in our campaign it is allowed, but your maximum is still limited by the initial skill - so if I have a +8 to Knowledge: Arcana and a +24 to Bluff, I cap out at 28 - it just means I'm way more likely to hit my max and my minimum is a 25)
Triple Time - sacrificed first level Bard spell
Gear:
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism, Cracked Mulberry Pentacle, Cracked Incandescent Blue Sphere, Cracked Dark Blue Rhomboid
Specially made corset - grants Divine Grace on wearer, as per the Paladin spell
Headband of Charisma +2
Circlet of Persuasion
Gloves of Dueling
Cape of Daring Deeds
Amazing Tools of Manufacture
Belt of Dexterity +4
+1 Mithril Shirt
+1 Buckler
+1 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+3 Keen Speed Rapier (special item acquired under unique circumstances - does way more than just the combat aspects)
Skills (most used ones):
+14 Acrobatics
+25 Bluff
+27 Diplomacy
+23 Disable Device
+23 Intimidate
+9 to all Knowledge Skills (except +10 to Local)
+10 Perception (other folks have been searching for trap for me)
+13 Spellcraft
Current Party:
Oracle built entirely around healing and buffing
Wizard with special companion (focuses on fireball with elemental damage change)
Archery-based fighter
Synthesist (new character after previous one died)
My character
What I was thinking of doing:
We are currently in a deep dungeon - been there since level 7. Once we get back to town, unless we get a ton more money between the now and the dungeon exit, I can either add +4 Con to my belt (with about 7-8k left over), or get Celestial Armor and boost my AC.
Retrain my two crafting feats (possibly after adding Con to the belt, and maybe making small things for the other party members) and take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses. That would allow me to start building to Deadly Stroke.
At some point also thinking of taking Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon. (Would only bump it from a d6 to a d8 at the moment, but more valuable later on)
We have a wizard which means I am no longer the only knowledge person in the party, but that player isn't there every session. So preferably being able to keep the Pageant of the Peacock, plus the players love the way we RP it (I have my character spout out a bunch of nonsense - hence the "bluff" check - and then accidentally stumble across the piece of information we actually got).
Am I looking down the right path, and is Deadly Stroke worth it?
Currently considering this progression, feat wise:
Retrain crafting feats: Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses
9th level: Countenanced Carbuncle
Swash 8th level bonus feat: Weapon Specialization: Rapier
11th level: Greater Weapon Focus
13th level: Critical Focus or Relentless Butcher (Achievement)
Swash 12th level bonus feat: Deadly Stroke
Was also considering getting Critical Focus, then Bleeding Critical and/or Impaling Critical.
Has my commitment to Swashbuckler screwed me over, or do these look viable? Is there some other path I should be exploring, do you think?
No, deadly stroke is not worth it. It's like vital strike only with huge prereqs - 1 con bleed is too slow to be reliably useful and it can't stack. Since you've taken 7 levels in swash use the targeting deed when you want to make a standard action attack. Never mind that last.
Advanced weapon training isn't available to swashbucklers or bards, forget that. Swashbuckler weapon training (or rapier training) is not the same as a fighter's weapon training.
Precious few creatures will fail a DC 16-17 Fort save at level 13. Relentless butcher may work occasionally but it seems likely to slow down combat to little value.
Possessed hand is the not-just-for-Vampworld version of countenanced carbuncle. It comes with followup feats which could be fun.
Anyway, other ideas - if you can persuade the synthesist to take the outflank teamwork feat (and take it yourself) you'll both appreciate it. You're going to want signature deed eventually (panache & swashbuckler levels count as grit and gunslinger here). If you want to get into shatter defenses there are other __ display feats which may be of more use than deadly stroke.
I'm only familiar with Negotiator Bard through a focus on Intimidation... I used VMC Cavalier for Order of the Cockatrice to use Dazzling Display to better effect... rounded it out with Mien of Despair, Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, and the Memorable trait... Opportunist to go with Steal Glory.
If you continue in Negotiator, and retrain into Dazzling Display (or take it next), you can use Menacing Swordplay/Dazzling Display/Superior Feint, the Hard Bargainer bonus, and Mien of Despair (from Negotiator Rogue Talents) to provide debuffs.
Or even take two levels of Cavalier to help your saves/BAB, get Braggart/Dazzling Display... then continue in Negotiator for the, well, everything... but let's focus on good Will saves, and magic that helps your friends... and the Hard Bargainer bonuses to Feint/Intimidate...
Swashbuckler 7/Bard 13
BAB +16
Base saves +6/+13/+10
Swashbuckler 7/Bard 2/Cavalier 2/Bard 9
BAB +17
Base saves +8/+12/+9
Cavalier comes with baggage, though, reduces your CL... the shift in focus trying to make use of Challenge/following the edicts of the Order, may subtract from your original plan... now you want Chain Challenge and $#!+... but it IS an option...
Your commitment issues, aside...
If we just ride Negotiator...
Scaling bonus to yours Bluff/Feint/Intimidate...
Good Will saves... you have p!$$ Will saves...
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I think this would profit from doing a proper character building process. Instead of just saying what feats you have planned, tell us what you want your character to be able to do, what strengths you want to increase and what weaknesses you want to reduce. It would also helpü for us to know what kinds of challenged the campaign holds, including how combat is like (as expanded below).
Skrayper wrote: Has my commitment to Swashbuckler screwed me over, or do these look viable? The relative combat power of Swashbuckler is antiproportial to the difficulty of combat in the campaign. Against vanilla fights, i.e. combat on even ground against not-too-large numbers of melee enemies that have few attacks at full BAB and little or no magical abilities, Swashbuckler is good. The more (and the more often) combat deviates from that, the worse the class is, as it has no tools against swarms, non-rechable enemies (including flying ones), hidden/invisible enemies, or magical defenses, and fares poorly against ranged enemies, large numbers of enemies, enemies with multiple accurate attacks, and anything that might enforce more than one saving throw per round (although your corset and cape fix that). The more levels in Swashbuckler, the more pronounced this is. Likewise, feats like Possessed Hand strengthen what a Swashbuckler is already pretty good at, while not doing anything against the weaknesses, which means they, too, are work well for campaings with mainly vanilla fights, but not so well if that's not the case.
avr wrote: No, deadly stroke is not worth it. It's like vital strike only with huge prereqs - 1 con bleed is too slow to be reliably useful and it can't stack. Well, Deadly Strike doubles all damage, which makes it much better than VS when it works. The problem is, however, that it only works against flat-footed or stunned enemies. Since Shatter Defenses requires the PC to have previously attacked the enemy, which means they're in melee range, the PC could just full attack for more damage. That only leaves the start of combat, against enemies who haven't acted yet, and only if there is no surprise round (because when there is one, the PC can use that to move, and can full attack first round).
avr wrote: if you can persuade the synthesist to take the outflank teamwork feat (and take it yourself) you'll both appreciate it. That heavily depends on the optimization level of the Synthesist. It's very eazy to build a Synthesist who just kills everything they pounce, in which case by the time the two PCs are in flanking position, the enemy will already be dead.
First, just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Also, sorry for taking a while to reply. Paizo's site is being wonky on my browsers, even after going to Incognito mode - loaded up Firefox Nightly which did the trick.
It seems I screwed up my character a bit, and have been using dueling gloves thinking that the +2 to Weapon Training applied to the Swashbuckler Weapon Training - that kind of made things a bit easier though in thinking about what I was going to do (presuming the GM is on board).
So my thoughts were the following:
#1) Retrain my levels of Swashbuckler to Virtuous Bravo. This means a bit less constant damage (losing the +1 hit and +2 damage from Swashbuckler Weapon Training) but gaining smite evil. Plus the lay on hands is a nice touch, and a hefty boost to saves. This would mean the fewest mechanical changes to the character.
#2) Retrain my levels of Swashbuckler to Arcane Exemplar. This is basically a CHA-based holy Magus.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Omdura/archetypes/arcane-exem plar-omdura-archetype/
While this one would require a lot more backend work, but because it allows for Magus Arcana to be taken, the first two I could take would be Flamboyant Arcana and then Arcane Deed (Precise Strike). Couple that with Arcane Strike, and you're set for base damage, and Spellstrike would allow for potential
The interesting part of this class is that the spells are "altered" spells, not replacement - meaning that they are, for most intents and purposes, divine spells (so no arcane spell failure). So I could easily upgrade the armor to offset the loss of nimble, and I would have Invocations to buff the party, and Divine Might (wish they hadn't called it that) which is a lesser version of smite (basically a half power smite). Considering at 10th level the Invocation can basically give the party adamantine (we have an archer in the party, so that would help him immensely).
Coupled with access to the Magus spells, that means I can help deal with things like swarms, and get boosts to damage through Spellstrike, and the like.
It's hard to get much insight into Omdura as very few people I talk to are even aware of the class' existence. That said, the buffing ability coupled with magic and armor, plus I had already been RP'ing the character where it could make sense thematically (she's pretty devout to Desna), and this might work.
What do you all think? I know it's a lot of down time, but I'm hoping our GM gives us a bit of leeway in that category due to the fact that we've been in a dungeon crawl for a LARGE number of sessions, on a different plane with no means of getting home at this time.
Clearing the paizo.com cookies from the browser of your choice will probably fix the website problem.
The virtuous bravo paladin is certainly workable (and better value than swashbuckler), and fits a tank.
The arcane exemplar omdura is problematic. It casts arcane spells not divine - check the first sentence of divine insight - and has no ability to cast in armor. It doesn't have spell combat. Its arcana still use Int even if the spellcasting uses Cha, though admittedly you have both to some degree. Without an archetype the class is a solid divine bard-type, but that archetype is messed up.
avr wrote: Clearing the paizo.com cookies from the browser of your choice will probably fix the website problem. Yeah, I know. Just find doing so annoying.
avr wrote: The virtuous bravo paladin is certainly workable (and better value than swashbuckler), and fits a tank. Yeah, agreed.
avr wrote: The arcane exemplar omdura is problematic. It casts arcane spells not divine - check the first sentence of divine insight - and has no ability to cast in armor. It doesn't have spell combat. Its arcana still use Int even if the spellcasting uses Cha, though admittedly you have both to some degree. Without an archetype the class is a solid divine bard-type, but that archetype is messed up. Not sure I'd concur? I'm assuming you're referring to Arcane Insight (dunno what Divine Insight is), but this is the text:
Quote: An arcane exemplar casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list, as a magus of her level. She uses her Charisma score and modifier in place of her Intelligence score and modifier for the purposes of learning spells, casting spells, determining spell DCs and bonus spells, and any other effects related to spellcasting.
An arcane exemplar must study a spellbook each day to prepare her spells, as a magus. She begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level magus spells plus three 1st-level magus spells of her choice. The arcane exemplar also selects a number of additional 1st-level magus spells equal to her Charisma modifier to add to her spellbook. At each new arcane exemplar level, she adds two new magus spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new arcane exemplar level) to her spellbook. At any time, an arcane exemplar can also add spells found in other spellbooks to her own.
This alters spells and orisons.
Because it doesn't REPLACE the ability but rather alters it, you're really casting arcane spells as divine. Of course, I'd clear it with my GM before going overboard with it but that's what I'm seeing.
As far as the Magus Arcana, most of them don't seem stat dependent, at least the ones I'm looking at. Which ones are impacted by Int score?
"Casts arcane spells" means you cast arcane spells. It replaces divine casting with arcane casting
Dox got it. 'An arcane exemplar casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list, as a magus of her level.' - there's no part of that which suggests that you might cast them as divine spells, and it explicitly says 'casts arcane spells'. 'Divine insight' was a mind fart on my part of course, it was 'arcane insight'. On the plus side there are advantages to being a prepared arcane caster (fancy spellbooks, the arcane strike feat line), but I'm not sure they really fit your character.
As far as magus arcana go, arcane accuracy and hasted assault are two commonly used arcana with Int-dependence. There's others less commonly used, but those are ones which many magi take (especially the first) and which you might very well want.
You guys are correct; I guess I was applying things I figured were logical (i.e. being a striker, being based on the magus, the core class still giving you armor proficiency), but it's clear if I DID want to take that route, I'd be going to my GM to get a few things houseruled to make it viable.
Part of me is tempted to see if my GM can assist in putting in a couple of houserules that would make the Swashbuckler be more effective as is. He already approved me using Gloves of Dueling (though I had read places that said it technically shouldn't work, but his logic is that they were made before the swashbuckler class existed and even then, it's just one word between "weapon training" and "swashbuckler weapon training"). Considering that the gloves are the equivalent of three feats plus some when you get the +2 (basically like getting Weapon Spec, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus).
I may ask him if, using the fighter bonus feats, if he would approve the Swash being able to get Advanced Weapon Training. I wouldn't be able to do it much, and never for free, but it would certainly give a bump to the Swash (damned shame Trained Grace very specifically says to use Dex to hit and Str to damage). Like how being able to take Fighter Tactics would make teamwork feats way more viable. It's a shame that there wasn't (and now will never be) an authorized "Unchained Swashbucker"
I kinda disagree with other posters. Swashbuckler is a TOP TIER martial, they just fall off a bit after where you are.
It's the negotiator that's adding nothing but a feat to you. So I suggest going magus, arcane duelist bard, magus, etc. Omudra, as you mentioned, is overlooked, but so is Marshal medium imho (look at how it adds a relevant buff to the whole team, and 1d6's after rolls are incredibly powerful!!)
levels 6-7 of swashbuckler don't add the much, so if you wanted to retain, I'd say it's those. Inspire courage is huge, and you'd be one level away from +2, 3 with banner of ancient kinds or scarlet rose, which the synthesist and archer could use. You SHOULDN'T need more buffs with that party, you're by far the most accurate martial and can dela great damage! Yes, make your casters take the crafting feats but these are my two cents added.
Once again, thanks for everyone chipping in. I'm amazed at some of the things people think of.
I think I have an idea to help the character, mostly because there are still fun ways to play them as is but still boost them up.
Retrain my two bard levels as the following:
1 into a Sorrowsoul Bard - originally when I was using the Pageant, we had no other skill-based characters; however, now we have a wizard in the party and the summoner. So now I don't use my performances nearly as much; this would allow me to use some to get +2 to attack and damage. I also considered Dervish Dancer, because then it might be +1 less but I could use it with Lingering Performance.
1 into Virtuous Bravo, then take my next level in Virtuous Bravo. Divine Health and Smite, plus we have already acquired a Bracelet, Silver Smite. I might retrain the the other two as blashimov suggested; Omidura is tempting for the buffs they can give others as well though I'd hate to lose BAB. If I get an item that boosts Inspire Courage then Sorrowsoul might work well.
I'd drop Bard in favor of Sorcerer. At 20 you will get quite a few bonus spells I think two at first level. Shield would be my first. That's four to AC for minutes enough for combat maybe even two depending on the dungeon crawl. Better then a buckler by far. You lose skills going Sorcerer but you gain magical abilities. Depending on how you play him you could eventually go Eldritch Knight. You gain more combat feats and still get spells.
My reasoning for losing the Bard is the spell selection while interesting are more Buff and Healing you have someone for that.
Skrayper wrote: Yeah, I know. Just find doing so annoying. Just click on the lock sign in the adress bar, and then on "delete cookies and website data".
Skrayper wrote: #1) Retrain my levels of Swashbuckler to Virtuous Bravo. This means a bit less constant damage (losing the +1 hit and +2 damage from Swashbuckler Weapon Training) but gaining smite evil. Plus the lay on hands is a nice touch, and a hefty boost to saves. This would mean the fewest mechanical changes to the character. Well, Virtuous Bravo is almost a pure upgrade to Swashbuckler (so much that I like to call it "unchained Swashbuckler"), especially if you can make do with the 2+int skill ranks per level thanks to the Pageant and your keen weapon makes losing Improved Critical a non-factor. The boost in defense is huge, although in your particulat case, the saves might not improve that much - unless your GM is letting your custom corset stack with Divine Grace (which the Bestow Grace spell does RAW, but allowing that would be fairly ridiculous to be honest). The Synthesist would gladly take that corset, though. The offense is also boosted in practise, because limited use abilities are actually better than static ones (in easy fights you don't need SWT, and in tough fights you have Smite Evil).
Skrayper wrote: It's hard to get much insight into Omdura as very few people I talk to are even aware of the class' existence. That's because while it was made with support from Paizo, it's not really a Paizo book; for instance, it's not aviable from Paizo.com. It's also from a different setting than everything else.
Skrayper wrote: 1 into a Sorrowsoul Bard - originally when I was using the Pageant, we had no other skill-based characters; however, now we have a wizard in the party and the summoner. So now I don't use my performances nearly as much; this would allow me to use some to get +2 to attack and damage. For the cost of a standard action, so it'd be only worth it if you have time to prebuff (although with just 9 rounds per day, that better not be too much time). Also, considering the number of attacks your teammates should have, regular Inspire Courage would be way better.
Overall, you still haven't said what you actually want your character be able to do. Don't think in class names and level dips, think in things you want your character to be able to do, and what you want your character to be good at.
blashimov wrote: Swashbuckler is a TOP TIER martial I presume you've never seen a well build martial, because otherwise, you wouldn't make such a statement. I also presume that you play in low challenge games filled with vanilla combat, because otherwise, you would've seen the many issues with the class.
Swashbuckler is good at what it does, but that's just a small part of the game. If your campaign mostly includes this small portion, it can appear like a strong class. Agains a low number of enemies that nicely do nothing but attack in melee, it's strong. What happens when the enemy is flying or invisible? The Swashbuckler is useless then. What happens when there are a lot of enemies (or the enemies have a lot of attacks per round)? The panache won't last long if he uses OP&R multiple times per round. What happens when the enemies are ranged combatants? He needs to walk up to them, make a single attack, and wait a turn while under enemy fire (OP&R only works against melee) before he can full attack. Even worse when there's difficult terrain in the way. What happens when the enemies enforce multiple saving throws per round? After the first one, Charmed Life is gone, and with weak base saves for both Fort and Will, the Swashbuckler is very likely to fail.
When it comes to non-combat challenges, it doesn't look much better - 4+int skills per level (and you can't invest much in int), and the Derring-Do deed is the only non-combat class features (plus Swashbuckler’s Edge at 15th level).
Derklord wrote: Skrayper wrote: Yeah, I know. Just find doing so annoying. Just click on the lock sign in the adress bar, and then on "delete cookies and website data". It's not a lack of knowledge, it is literal annoyance. :)
Derklord wrote: Well, Virtuous Bravo is almost a pure upgrade to Swashbuckler (so much that I like to call it "unchained Swashbuckler"), especially if you can make do with the 2+int skill ranks per level thanks to the Pageant and your keen weapon makes losing Improved Critical a non-factor. The boost in defense is huge, although in your particulat case, the saves might not improve that much - unless your GM is letting your custom corset stack with Divine Grace (which the Bestow Grace spell does RAW, but allowing that would be fairly ridiculous to be honest). The Synthesist would gladly take that corset, though. The offense is also boosted in practise, because limited use abilities are actually better than static ones (in easy fights you don't need SWT, and in tough fights you have Smite Evil). A part of me has considered doing both, which I know is a bit silly (having Virtuous Bravo and Inspired Blade), but it does mean less retraining (downtime is kind of a crapshoot in the campaign we're in), and at 9th level my thinking currently is Some kind of Bard 1 / Inspired Blade 5 / Virtuous Bravo 3. Keep the Pageant and Triple Time, can still use wands for low-level Bard spells and being able to heal the Oracle in case of emergencies, and when we hit 10th stick with VB which means the Precise Strike damage stacks. (We may very well be 10th when we're done with this massive dungeon anyway). That way I'm not downtime TOO much, get the fun stuff and if I ever get a different weapon (unlikely but you never know), I haven't lost my Improved Crit. Then I have the Swash Weapon Training plus the Gloves of Dueling (ruled to work together by my GM), plus Smite Evil plus Inspire Courage.
Derklord wrote: That's because while it was made with support from Paizo, it's not really a Paizo book; for instance, it's not aviable from Paizo.com. It's also from a different setting than everything else. I get it, just a little sad that there will never be an updated book that explores it.
Derklord wrote: For the cost of a standard action, so it'd be only worth it if you have time to prebuff (although with just 9 rounds per day, that better not be too much time). Also, considering the number of attacks your teammates should have, regular Inspire Courage would be way better.
Overall, you still haven't said what you actually want your character be able to do. Don't think in class names and level dips, think in things you want your character to be able to do, and what you want your character to be good at.
Fair; the nice thing about Sorrowsoul is that they still have the regular variation of Inspire Courage, but can do an internal version as well to get a buff. No Lingering and needing to burn two uses means it'd be a rare thing, but present. I've also considered Arcane Duelist, as they still get Inspire Courage, and even at 1st level have Arcane Strike for free. Honestly, that's just one less to hit but more uses of Inspire, plus viable to take Lingering later on. Add a Dervish Sikke and Green Tribal War Paint, and that would give Inspire Courage a +3/+3. I guess I just really LIKE the name of the class "Sorrowsoul".
I am not at all opposed to going entirely Virtuous Bravo, but I may need to look at available gold and available downtime, and just accept a hybrid build for now.
Shame Harmonizing is so expensive with the penalties it applies. I just don't see 15,000 with -5 stealth and increased damage from sonic attacks to be worth the same as 1/2 a feat and +5 to Perform.
As far as the Corset, TECHNICALLY it would stack (as you stated, RAW lists the spell as granting a Sacred Bonus, and Paladin gets it as an untyped), but you're right - it's absurd, especially when you throw in the Saving Grace I'd still have, plus the Cloak jumping to +4 for a full round after I use it. So I'd probably give it to our Oracle (IC he's my character's brother), but the Summoner could also benefit hugely from it.
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