So I guess fighting with a sword and dagger isn't actually about having twice the amount of metal stabbing things, it's about being more versatile and defensive, etc.
Now, I don't mind the idea of the human blender with two axes or whatever. It's a classic fantasy trope.
But what about the musketeer-style guy who wants to tumble around and swing on chandeliers, and fights with a rapier and main gauche? The system's interpretation of two weapon fighting with "stand your ground and do more damage" definitely doesn't support his style.
Has anyone seen or come up with anything that feels a little more like that second example?
I haven't seen that for Pathfinder, but would like to.
A second weapon might better be modelled by granting a shield bonus and allowing more AoOs rather than more attacks in general (and dropping the -2 to hit).
IRL, I suspect daggers and MGs were used as off-hand weapons because they were easy to carry, rather than because they were good. A shield would be more genuine use, but really bulky (hence the renaissance rapier+buckler, where the buckler is about as small as a shield can be, and is as much a punching weapon as a shield).
RPGs tend to squash battlefield weapons (spears, shields, polearms, battleaxes) and street weapons (smallswords, bucklers, rapiers) into the same bucket. Only 1H swords and daggers belong in both categories. Likewise with fighting styles (2H and 1H+shield vs TWF or unarmed).
If there was an option to make a move action setup (combinable with a move, I mean) really good, that'd help with the tumbling around/swinging on chandeliers bit. Or full attack as a standard action as per the Corefinder that Legendary Games will be putting out.
I think the rapier (with or without a small weapon) being defensive and possibly versatile is a different issue. That needs a deeper look into PFs combat and magic systems, or you could half-arse it with a feat chain.
Use two Sawttooth Sabres... worship Achaekek...
Mantis Style Mastery (Ex) You take no penalties on attack rolls from two-weapon fighting when wielding two sawtooth sabres simultaneously, and you gain a +2 profane bonus on all damage rolls with sawtooth sabres. If you deal sneak attack damage with a sawtooth sabre, you deal 2 additional points of damage for each die rolled as part of your sneak attack damage. If you have levels in the Red Mantis assassin prestige class (The Inner Sea World Guide 282), the DC for the save against your prayer attack increases by 2.
Use two Sawttooth Sabres... worship Achaekek...
Mantis Style Mastery (Ex) You take no penalties on attack rolls from two-weapon fighting when wielding two sawtooth sabres simultaneously, and you gain a +2 profane bonus on all damage rolls with sawtooth sabres. If you deal sneak attack damage with a sawtooth sabre, you deal 2 additional points of damage for each die rolled as part of your sneak attack damage. If you have levels in the Red Mantis assassin prestige class (The Inner Sea World Guide 282), the DC for the save against your prayer attack increases by 2.
*Wheeze*
A level 14 ability for a prestige class and a 20th level ability for a non-evangelist prestige class. It also doesn't address the problem OP mentioned...
Quixote have you ever checked out Spheres of Might? In this system, Full Attacks are less important and martials lean more towards versatility rather than damage. The Dual Wielding sphere for example can let you use maneuvers and gain bonuses to attempting those maneuvers(to actually make it more possible to land them) with your offhand strike. The Athletics sphere has options for rope swinging, bouncing and tumbling around as well.
I've been thinking about a lot of these ideas. Changing two weapon fighting so you can attack once with each weapon as a standard action--it would help with the "only works when you don't move" issue, but that's about it.
A +1 shield bonus would capture the defensive nature of it, but then you'd need to make an adjustment to shields as well.
An extra attack of opportunity or bonuses to various maneuvers would get that tricky, swashbuckly feel down.
A list of options; extra attacks, extra AC or bonus AoO/maneuvers to pick from each round or whatever would get that versatile essence in there, but that may be getting needlessly complicated. Plus, that's sort of baked into the rules already.
And just to be clear, I'm absolutely not looking to make the game more "realistic". I know how that goes, and where to go to for more realistic (and tedious) combat simulators and such.
I'm just trying to capture that feel, that tone. The guy in the big hat with the bigger feather and two small blades doesn't take a 5ft step at a time and sacrifice mobility for offensive power. That's not his deal at all.
The flavor you are looking for is the Buccaneer Gunslinger (human racial archetype)... they tried, they really did...
You would have to gestalt/multiclass/PrC that to pull it off, though.
Buccaneer Bard gestalt with Buccaneer Gunslinger makes for a fabulous human pirate NPC... Song of Surrender... feats like Antagonize/Call Truce... allows control of narrative...
Buccaneer Gunslinger gestalt/multiclass with Pirate/Scout UnRogue works, too... for maximum swinging from the chandeliers...
I'll have to look into those for some ideas.
I'm not looking for how to do this work existing rules, especially when the solution just boils down to multiclassing and all these optional subsystems. I feel like, if there's a basic enough concept that can't be effectively covered by the core rule, then it's time to break out the hacksaw get to houserulin'.
But if there are already examples of similar things, that's the place to start.
I'd keep the mobility vs full attack issue separate from the TWF issue. For a start, swinging from the chandelier tends to benefit from at least one free hand.
So for the mobility issue you might have a short feat chain like:
Acrobatic Charge: You gain a dodge bonus equal to 1/4 of your ranks in Acrobatics (min 1) on any round when you move at least 10' and are not flat-footed, and do not suffer the AC penalty from a charge.
Acrobatic Attack (prereq Ac Charge): You may use your Acrobatics ranks instead of your BAB for all purposes in any round when you move at least 10' and are not flat-footed.
Acrobatic Defence (prereq Ac Charge): You may make an Acrobatics roll in place of your AC once per round in any round in which you move at least 10' and are not flat-footed.
EDIT: not for mounted characters!
You also need to allow people to combine things like Vital Strike and Cleave with a charge, and compress feat chains like Dodge/Mobility.
