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In a fit of madness, I decided to tackle an update of the Medium class. As this version is quite different from both the OA playtest AND the final version, I decided to place it here rather than in the conversion subforum.
All class features and class feats up to level 4 (as well as a couple level 6 ones) are written, though I'm sure there's some clean up left to do.
Apologies that I'm not using the format everyone else uses; I get confused trying to use PF Scribe.
Still reading through it - love it already - but the formatting is definitely a bit rough. I agree Scribe is kind of complicated, but have you tried Homebrewery? It's the same thing the Drifter doc is in, I think.
Worst case I'll convert it to a presentation so it is FORCED to look exactly how I want it.
Or I'll grumble and use the bloody tools. It just makes me sad.
Too late to edit my initial post, but one thing I wanted to add: I haven't yet playtested how the Influence system works in combat, as I only just thought of it like a week ago (and made it a class trait yesterday), but the temptation to remove focus points entirely and just make everything either a focus cantrip, a ritual, or an influence action is...high. I already converted two rules sections that were originally focus spells to instead run off influence: Spirit Surge and Animate Haunt.
Of course, if I do that, I have to come up with 3 new class feats that are currently earmarked for focus recovery and usage, but thems the breaks.
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This rules. Simple and elegant. Excited to see what other feats it gets.
Have you considered how this might function with, say, free archetype rules? Or if the player chooses to manually take an MCD?
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This rules. Simple and elegant. Excited to see what other feats it gets.
Have you considered how this might function with, say, free archetype rules? Or if the player chooses to manually take an MCD?
Free archetype, I did not think about specifically. I did think about taking a MCD the regular way, and I just realized I neglected to include that language. Basically if you already have the MC dedication, you can simply pick a 1st level medium feat instead. Which is partly why there are so many 1st level medium feats, as it happens. Most levels there are only 2-3.
I find it very interesting.
I'm not a huge proponent of "all classes must be perfectly numerically balanced" but i do wonder, would a medium be a bit on the powerful side?
Essentially, they have a free archetype, a level early, and they can change it every day.
Would it be over correcting to have any action based feats they gain from 'spirit feats' gain the influence tag? And/or spellcasting?
Nor am I, but if anything, I'm concerned it'll wind up underpowered. Remember, instead of a full martial's proficiencies and class features, or a spellcasters spell slots, the medium gets a class feat that is deliberately limited in power to half that of a full class.
You do, however, get a LOT of them. So there's that.
I plan to run a playtest on this soon. I wanted to get the stuff on paper first, as it were.
Here's my question:
If i make a character using this class, who is a halfling with the prisoner background and the backstory that they escaped prison and are still sought by authorities,
Do you laugh or throw something at me?
That took me a second, lol.
Gonna give this a read next time I’ve got a good moment.
Paper if you want the markup for Drifter for scribe it might be easier to copy pasta it in. I’m sure you’d have to still do some page formatting (literally the most arduous process of updating the dang things) but it might save you some time so figured I’d offer.
Hope to post my thoughts soon!
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Gonna give this a read next time I’ve got a good moment.
Paper if you want the markup for Drifter for scribe it might be easier to copy pasta it in. I’m sure you’d have to still do some page formatting (literally the most arduous process of updating the dang things) but it might save you some time so figured I’d offer.
That was actually my project for the day.
A lot of hot chocolate (with tequila) was involved. I also discovered that the word "Medium" is automatically colored to mark it as a size trait instead of a normal trait, so I wound up using the trait "Medium-class" for everything.
Along the way (there was a lot of reformatting), I cleaned up some entries and got a little further on writing up feats.
I'm still trying to decide if I want Spirit Surge to remain an action similar to Rage, or if I'd rather make it a focus spell. I have to admit, the idea of rearranging it all to make it a focus spell is currently why it remains an action.
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Link isn’t working for me just FYI, think you need to trim the start of the path
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Corrected. Also I'm about to write up the last 20th level feat (for now anyways), and then I have another focus spell to write.
Then...sigh. Going to move Spirit Surge to the spell section and shift everything around.
Update: Done for now. Still haven't added that language regarding MCD, but my brain is fried. Tomorrow!
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Okay! I have given everything a good read. I've got some questions/comments, but first I want to start by saying:
This is well designed in terms of the themes. The idea of a Spirit Archetype is actually super cool and I think a good expression of what being a "medium" would actually be like.
In terms of the design structure, everything seems to be in line. The Basic Spellcasting feats being grandfathered in is a nice touch and allows Medium to sort of expanding themselves into the casting space if that is prefferred.
It is indeed a unique design but one that feels "right", if that makes sense.
Now onto the questions/comments:
1. I am not sure it's terribly clear how the Spirit Feats scale, the table only has them at level 3 but I would feel like this is something they should get regularly. I'm not crazy about the "You can take them as if you were your level + 1" because it just seems inconsistent, I get that you're trying to avoid "doubling up" on Feats on the even levels, but more than likely it should go in the other direction
2. Although the Spirit Archetype is a great way to go to substitute a Class Path, as I'm reading it now, since it can be changed every day, you don't really have a Class Path. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, Fighter/Monks don't have them, but you might consider having a certain affinity for Spirits and roping them into a collection or having them acquire different spirits over time (aka barbarian Spirit first, then maybe a Ranger spirit next or Primal Spirit which gives druid, ranger, and barbarian)
3. The designs individual segments feel good, Medium as a caster seems solid and Spirit seems solid, but the marriage of the two could use some "interconnectivity". Right now, this is serving as a the Synthesist and it could really go further
4. The haunt interactions are cool AF and I love the feats for that. This is a good lean for them too, serving as almost the Haunt Specialist in the same way as the Ranger. Nice. Super flavorful too.
Observations:
1. You might consider looking at PF1 Shaman and borrowing some concepts from that. I have a feeling that Shaman and Medium might have been married in some way.
2. They seem like they could be a partial caster ala Magus and Summoner. I do think that would give them a little more oomph, as right now I worry about their power level being on the low side.
3. This class is extremely versatile right now, which is great, but it comes off as the 3.5 Scribe (if you've ever seen that class) which had so many ancillary abilities from many classes that it ultimately wasn't good enough at anything to actually be good. One thing I think could help is some kind of permanent decisions made early on (basically a Class path of some kind) that allows them to specialize just a pinch more so they can trade a bit of versatility for power.
4. I really would like to see a Medium that bonds with warrior spirits from the beyond operating differently from one that interacts with say the recently dead spirits. There are a lot of different "Medium" themes you can play with everything from Posession, manifestation, poltergeists, to outright ectoplasmic bursts.
Questions:
1. Can you give a "build in mind" that you had when creating this?
2. How do you see these guys operating at low, mid, and high level?
3. What role would you want a Medium to fill in the team? Are they a flex player or can they be relied upon for something specific?
4. What can a medium do that no one else does better?
5. Was there any decisions you wanted to go with but couldn't find a way to make it work?
____________
All in all, great go at this though and there's definitely something there. IMO it's slightly undertuned, but it's always better to start below power and tune up so not even that big of a deal.
Happy Holidays buddy!
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1. I am not sure it's terribly clear how the Spirit Feats scale, the table only has them at level 3 but I would feel like this is something they should get regularly. I'm not crazy about the "You can take them as if you were your level + 1" because it just seems inconsistent, I get that you're trying to avoid "doubling up" on Feats on the even levels, but more than likely it should go in the other direction
Honestly it was mostly because, without that bump, they'd not be able to get any spirit feats at level 3.
I'll go ahead and add the spirit feat at each level you get them, that's a good editing point.
If I figure out a way to modify stuff so that they have an ability at level 3, I won't need that level bump, which is a bit confusing as is anyways. A class path like you suggest might work there.
2. Although the Spirit Archetype is a great way to go to substitute a Class Path, as I'm reading it now, since it can be changed every day, you don't really have a Class Path. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, Fighter/Monks don't have them, but you might consider having a certain affinity for Spirits and roping them into a collection or having them acquire different spirits over time (aka barbarian Spirit first, then maybe a Ranger spirit next or Primal Spirit which gives druid, ranger, and barbarian)
The lack of a class path is deliberate, yes, intended to offset the interchangeability of your spirit. The power budget that usually goes to a class path went straight into the spirit, influence, and spirit surge focus spell abilities.
3. The designs individual segments feel good, Medium as a caster seems solid and Spirit seems solid, but the marriage of the two could use some "interconnectivity". Right now, this is serving as a the Synthesist and it could really go further
Good point. I'll try to think of something that empowers cantrips in exchange for them gaining the influence trait. That's another option for a level 3 ability. Could be as simple as a +2 status bonus to spell attack rolls, though occult doesn't have good attack cantrips.
I had intended to write a force, poison, and sonic energy cantrips anyways, now is as good of a time as any.
1. You might consider looking at PF1 Shaman and borrowing some concepts from that. I have a feeling that Shaman and Medium might have been married in some way.
Oh, Shaman are next on my list. Partial Primal casters with an ability similar to Animate Haunt, except they can animate Genus Loci that give aura buffs.
To answer your question on "what I couldn't make work" is that I originally wanted a much more flexible system for that ability, even making it several focus spells. But my urge to just use what is already written in system was too strong. I like what I eventually came up with, but the shaman ability will be a lot closer to what I originally thought up.
As far as the rest of your questions, especially builds, I need to playtest the influence system before answering that. Once I get that correct, both in terms of how often it gets used and how often the penalties are triggered, I'll have a better answer for you. At the moment, I envision them as mostly support melee, dealing with undead threats in particular. They're not going to be heavy hitters with their fairly weak strikes, but they can plug most roles in the party and even offer doubling up if they know in advance something will come up.
Their one weird trick, aside from their ability to basically eat haunts, is that they'll be more or less immune to mental will save effects by level 8.
Things I intend to write:
-An AoO ability that is an ectoplasmic burst effect (another candidate for a level 3 ability).
-the three cantrips I mentioned
-Rewrite location channel so that it no longer uses the skill feat (I was being somewhat lazy there)
-A new feat allowing expanded uses of Influence Skill, letting you always use it for two set skills of your choice, in addition to Occultism
-An Undead Empathy feat that allows you to use diplomacy and intimidate on mindless undead
-Some more uses for diplomacy and intimidate in general. I suppose I can lean into THAT as a class path: Diplomacy or Intimidate. If it kicks in at level 3, I can give a free expert skill rank and a free level 2 medium class feat.
-I want at least one more feat of each level to bring it up to 40 class feats. Some are obvious already (1,2, and 4 are already here in this list), but the higher level ones have me pretty stumped.
-More metamagic, to also help with spirit+magic interactions. Or, alternatively, removing Reach Spell and making an influence feat that does the same thing. That might actually be better (and would have the benefit of making the key terms page fit properly).
-An ability to make a phantom flanker, like the Hexblade ability of old.
1 round.
Once I get the math right, I want Influence to average out to about a 3/4's of an action cost while surging.
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Good point. I did indeed use the regular text; mostly because I didn't know how to make items when I was formatting that section. I'll probably change that once I have time to make the changes I'm contemplating.
I have decided to add an Approach class feature:
-Choose either Deception, Intimidation, or Diplomacy. This is the primary skill you use when dealing with spirits. Your practice at doing so also gives you the ability to use 1 related skill action with the mental on mindless undead: Feint, Request (with the same limits as Wild Empathy), and Demoralize. You also get trained in that skill.
I'll try to figure out at least 1 feat for each by either appropriating an existing one or writing a new one, which means some current levels will get shuffled around (not the end of the world).
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1. I love the Medium as a class, thank you for this!
2. Omg just having the spirits give you the archetype feats is brilliant!
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1. I love the Medium as a class, thank you for this!
2. Omg just having the spirits give you the archetype feats is brilliant!
Thank you! I expect there will be some class that does this, even if it isn't the medium. It seems like an area where Paizo can make use of their own mechanics in an obvious way.
**Update January 1**
Working on version 1.1 of the class. The class features have been revised, including the introduction of an Approach at first level. In balance, the channel spirit ability no longer gives you a feat at 1st level; instead you simply pick the spirit's class for the use of your other abilities. You now get the dedication at 3rd and more feats from 5th on, eliminating the need for the level bump.
Spirit surge has been revised a bit. The math is now where I want it to be (remembering how to do probability sets made me go cross-eyed for a bit), and you get a bonus class feat when you cast it.
I'm going to write a handful of cantrips now, and then add some more feats, including Multiclass feats.
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Update January 9
**collapses**
A bunch of feats are now added. This class wound up with so many Influence reactions that I went ahead and gave a feat that gave out bonus reactions.
One feat I'm particularly proud of:
Surrender to Influence :free action:
Feat 18
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Medium-Class
Trigger You become stunned and your influence score is at least 1
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Your spirit is powerful enough to act when you could not. Instead of becoming stunned, that condition is suppressed and you become instead confused, as you allow your channeled spirit to take control of your actions. You do not target yourself, but might target your allies. You can attempt a DC 7 flat check to disrupt any action that would target your allies; if successful, the actions are lost.
This state lasts for as long as your stunned condition remains. You cannot end it early.
In fact, I may just make it a baseline part of the channel spirit ability, it has so much potential for shenanigans.
Welp, time to throw this to the reddit wolves
Good luck on Reddit paper! I’ll keep an eye out for it
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This is delightful, pretty much exactly what I would look for in a medium.