Saving Throw Fortitude; Duration 1 minute
You create a cloud of putrid mist in the area. The cloud functions as obscuring mist except it sickens creatures that end their turns within the cloud. (The concealed condition is not a poison effect.)
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature is sickened 1.
Failure The creature is sickened 1 and slowed 1 while in the cloud.
Critical Failure The creature is sickened 2 and slowed 1 until it leaves the cloud.
I just wrote a wizard guide and we got into a discussion about the Stinking Cloud spell.
Do people have to save against it when it is cast (and also at the end of every turn if they're still in it) or do they only save against it if they stay in it ?
Most spells will tell you when you have to make a save, or else you make it when the spell is cast. The descriptive text here is a little confusing but the spell does 2 things. It has an area which has an immediate effect determined by a fort save and the chart at the end of the spell, and it also creates an enduring cloud that functions like obscuring mist but also sickens creatures that end their turn in it.
It doesn't say those creatures need to make a save to see what happens. Now, the sickened condition tells us that it is always supposed to include a value, so there is some wonkiness in the wording of the spell, but wonkiness in the wording can be said about a lot of the spells and maybe that will get ironed out if people keep asking about it. But I assume that means that any creature that ends their turn in the cloud and is not some how immune to poison effects or inhaled poison effects in particular is sickened 1. The spell is even more powerful if they have to make a save after every turn they end within it as they might also end up slowed.
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On page 306:
Saving Throw and Duration If a spell allows the target to attempt a saving throw, the type of save appears here. Any details on the particular results and timing of the save appear in the text unless the entry specifies a basic saving throw, which follows the rules found on page 449. If the spell requires a save only under certain circumstances or at a certain time, this entry is omitted, since the text needs to explain it in more detail. A spell that doesn’t list a duration takes place instantaneously, and anything created by it persists after the spell.
Sounds like it's only if they end in the cloud, which kinda sucks. It would be much better if the save was at the start of the turn before they gain their actions for the round.
stinking cloud has a listed saving throw entry though.
according to the bolded rule section, if the saving throw was supposed to be only "at a certain time" (ending your round inside of it) then the entry would have been omitted. No?
Since there is a listed entry, and then a clarification in addition for timing, then that should, according to the rules you posted, have a saving throw BOTH at cast and at the specified time.
Well, it also says "Any details on the particular results and timing of the save appear in the text unless the entry specifies a basic saving throw, which follows the rules found on page 449".
It doesn't specify a basic saving throw, and there ARE details on the particular results and timing of the save in the text, though, so for me that's how it applies.
I don't mind either way but I would really like a clarification, because it either makes the spell interesting or not.
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I think you cast the Spell and the targets make their Basic Saving Throws.
The clause about ending their turns in the cloud making them sickened is to avoid targeted creatures from saving twice without acting.
Unless, of course, the intention was to stealthily nerf this spell and make it trigger only at the end of the targets turn, which makes it basically meaningless in combat... Or any moment really, since any target will be able to get out of the cloud in the vast majority of situations. My take is that RAI the target saves when the spell is cast, subsequent rounds only trigger when one ends inside the cloud.
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I think it would be nice/ a good idea to consider adding a line to the descriptive text making it clear when the saving throw is made, and what it means to "sicken creatures at the end of their turn" whether that means they make a save or not. However, there are spell like sleep that are structured the exact same way, so it seems weird to me to assume that the spell does not require a save immediately from those in the area upon casting the spell.
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Stinking Cloud doesn't have a basic save since it does no damage.
I agree it should be immediately, AND at the end of your turn if you stay in it, but the wording doesn't work out that way. They should just add the wording: "...except it sickens creatures upon casting, and if they end their turns within the cloud."
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The part of the spell you are talking about doesn't make any mention of making a saving throw though.
My initial reading of the spell was that the only time anyone had to make a save was when the spell was cast, otherwise you were just sickened (assuming 1) if you ended your turn in the spell, because that is how all other spells that have a saving throw and duration entry work, unless something else is specified about the saving throw in the description, which the spell never mentions in the description.
Some people seem to read "sicken" as "make a fort save to see what happens" but that is not really made clear in the text of the spell and it is not uncommon for other spells to be explicit about saving throws if they have to be made repeatedly.
My initial reading was that you make the save iff you end your turn within the area of effect. If it's supposed to work a different way, I'd appreciate some clarification.
"The enemy wizard fills the area with noxious gas, so you run out of it in order to avoid its ill effects" seems like the way the spell is supposed to operate.
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On consideration I agree with mrspaghetti, if it doesn't affect people on initial landing it's really very limited.
I rather like the balance. Sickened is a bad enough condition that you want to avoid it but it's not as crippling as being Nauseated was in 1E. Stinking Cloud was perhaps more powerful in 1E than Cloudkill and that's wrong.
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Even though I never thought about the interpretation that you only save if you end your turn in it (not at the beginning), I do think that the wording of this spell might be less clear than I thought it was at first and that it is a good candidate for Errata. The clause "it sickens creatures that end their turns within the cloud" isn't really issuing any clear mechanical directions that are consistent with the rules generally. If it means "make a saving throw" it should say it.
I am still under the impression though that having a saving throw listed in the initial spell listing, and then having the 4 tiers of success listed at the end, without any mention of saving throws within the spell description means that you make a saving throw when the spell is cast. That is the default way to read spells and is consistent with other spells. It would be great to get feedback on this from our kind and friendly developers, if not as official Errata, then even just hearing back from PFS people on how it should be run there would be awesome.