|
I believe it stays at it's current size. You wouldn't be able to shift a large bastard sword into a standard sized greatsword, nor the other way around. I would allow a large weapon to go to other large weapons just so you can make use of the rule properly, still making you clumsy and what not and getting your rage damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have a Shifting Rune on your weapon, can you adjust its Size, for example to benefit from the Titan Mauler ability of the Giant instinct?
As long as the number of hands used for the weapon doesn't change, sure why not? The only requirements are "melee" and "number of hands".
|
I believe it stays at it's current size. You wouldn't be able to shift a large bastard sword into a standard sized greatsword, nor the other way around. I would allow a large weapon to go to other large weapons just so you can make use of the rule properly, still making you clumsy and what not and getting your rage damage.
I was thinking more of say Large bastard sword to Medium bastard sword, or Large dagger to Medium dagger, so that it respects the number of hands clause of the Shifting Rune.
|
|
If you have a Shifting Rune on your weapon, can you adjust its Size, for example to benefit from the Titan Mauler ability of the Giant instinct?As long as the number of hands used for the weapon doesn't change, sure why not? The only requirements are "melee" and "number of hands".
I indeed think that is the RAW, even if counterintuitive.
I must admit my Paladin with the Giant instinct will just love this.
I swear I will not shift it to Tiny size just so I can get the GM to give me a good bonus on concealing it.
And really the visuals are just awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have a Shifting Rune on your weapon, can you adjust its Size, for example to benefit from the Titan Mauler ability of the Giant instinct?As long as the number of hands used for the weapon doesn't change, sure why not? The only requirements are "melee" and "number of hands".I indeed think that is the RAW, even if counterintuitive.
I must admit my Paladin with the Giant instinct will just love this.
I swear I will not shift it to Tiny size just so I can get the GM to give me a good bonus on concealing it.
And really the visuals are just awesome.
Change a Large bastard sword to a medium Monkey's Fist as it has a negligible bulk for Palm and Conceal works in most cases. Make it Tiny and it becomes Super-negligible I guess. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No Monkey's Fist in PFS alas. Tiny swordcane that you pass off as a letter opener? A pretty sharp one though.
Ah, didn't know it was for PFS. How about a tiny trident 'fork'? Bonus points if it fits in with your mess kit. ;)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BTW, just to mention there are no "different number of hands" rules in PF2.
Here are all the rules we currently have for different size weapons:
In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit. Large armor is simply too large for Small and Medium creatures.
So a large short sword still uses only one hand to wield.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a large short sword still uses only one hand to wield.
Yep, and a tiny greatsword needs 2.
|
|
The rules generally are written in a way that explains what something CAN do and not in a way that tells you what is prohibited. I don't see anything that would explicitly permit this so my take on this is: No.
Doing this would also represent a HUGE buff for Giant Barbarians as it would be a net savings of at least 1 Action per time you want to switch away from or TO your Large Weapon.
|
|
yes, and Shifting explicitly states that you can change a Melee weapon to any other melee weapon with the same hands.
...
plus, you aren't really saving actions, Shifting still takes an Action to switch forms.
You're still fundamentally trying to alter one of the basic statistics that isn't mentioned in the Rune rules, you're inferring functionality when it's not stated as granting that. You can use this same kind of logic to justify using the Shifting Rune to change the Weapon into a "Weapon Shape" that is Uncommon, Rare, or even Unique" and bypass the Rarity Rules.
Also, you ARE saving actions EVERY time you do this because your Barbarian previously had to do the following to effectively switch.
1) Stow held Weapon (1 Action)
2) Drawn backup Weapon (1 Action)
Versus 1) Activate Shifting Rune
Now, if you consider DROPPING the first Weapon when switching you can delay the Action cost and just draw the backup but then you will need to later pick the fist Weapon up again later.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules generally are written in a way that explains what something CAN do and not in a way that tells you what is prohibited. I don't see anything that would explicitly permit this so my take on this is: No.
Doing this would also represent a HUGE buff for Giant Barbarians as it would be a net savings of at least 1 Action per time you want to switch away from or TO your Large Weapon.
I think, given the bonus to damage, a raging Giant Barbarian will always want to use a Large weapon. So, having to spend an action shifting your weapon's Size is usually worse than directly starting with a Large weapon. I believe changing a weapon's Size might be useful for corner cases, but not that often.
And given the cost of the Shifting rune (not only in gp, but also the opportunity cost of not putting another rune in its stead), I feel it does not seem really unbalanced.
Finally, I do not see how applying the rules we are given to their RAW result can end up in something prohibited.
That said, courtesy to my GM will have me ask them how they feel about it. After all, their word is law AFAIC.
|
|
No, you're not understanding me so let me state it differently.
The Shifting Rune changes the form of the Weapon, it says nothing about the Size of the Weapon being changed at all. Since it doesn't mention this statistic it does not interact with it at all.
Large Weapons, just like Rarity require the Character to be given stated "access" to the other option. If you aren't given "access" you don't have it as a valid option to choose from - full stop, this is one of the most defining and foundational rules of the system at large and the lack of verbiage regarding Size on the Rune is not an excuse to just assume that is supposed to be allowed and override the regular rules, after all, a lack of rules cannot ever be considered to be more "Specific" a rule than the "General" one.
So, what you CAN do is use the Shifting Rune to change a Large Weapon into another Large Weapon and you can still use your Giant Barbarian Rage benefits from the Shifted Weapon but you cannot use the Rune to change the Size of the Weapon, the same thing goes with any other Size category as well.
Using this kind of "because it doesn't say I can't" ruling would permit any Character with any Weapon to change it into a Tiny version of a similarly handed Weapon to make it trivially easy to hide on your person (My Longsword is now Tiny Shortsword and half the dimensions of a Shortsword with no Bulk) or even Gargantuan Version of a given two-handed Weapon to Shift and you instantly have a 50 ft tall Quarterstaff that is 8 inches thick and has a Bulk of 8. I'm certain this isn't the intent, otherwise, the Shifting Rune instantly becomes incredibly inexpensive at will permanent Wall Spell that you can change and fiddle with as a single action which could be used as an obstacle befitting a MUCH higher level or even a Bridge whenever you need it.
Regarding your thoughts on Exploration versus Encounter mode, I suppose that's fair since discrete Actions don't matter outside of Encounter mode, but then again, I wasn't talking about Exploration mode at all, that's why I was talking about Action cost which very much is not something that should be shunted out of the conversation as it will be the central focus of the decision to switch from one Weapon Size to another in the first place since that's the only time Combat takes place.
even Gargantuan Version of a given two-handed Weapon to Shift and you instantly have a 50 ft tall Quarterstaff that is 8 inches thick and has a Bulk of 8.
Nothing directly indicates length changes: Bulk increases don't translate into a comparable change in dimension in RAW. Further, Reach doesn't change so that Gargantuan Longspear hits JUST as far away [+5', see Rune Giant] as a Tiny Longspear [+5']. This means that dimensions aren't a thing that can be calculated and therefor are easy a Dm to limit things that might be exploitive.
Now personally, I think most people WOULD alter the dimensions but it's 100% within their discretion on how that works as all we do know is the bulk change.
|
|
Nothing directly indicates length changes: Bulk increases don't translate into a comparable change in dimension in RAW. Further, Reach doesn't change so that Gargantuan Longspear hits JUST as far away [+5', see Rune Giant] as a Tiny Longspear [+5'].
While the Reach of the Weapon isn't changed the rest of the dimensions and stats absolutely would since Bulk is increased and that exists to communicates the ... well general Size of an item in both mechanical and conversational terms. That is unless you're trying to argue that since it doesn't have a defined X by Y by Z dimension then increasing the size of an Item doesn't actually... you know... change its size and in that case what you're trying to convince me of is that Amiri in art is drawn improperly because her Weapon should appear to be the same size and have the same dimensions as a Medium version of said Weapon.
An average Quarterstaff is a tad over 6 ft in length, about 1-inch in width, and has 1 bulk. Multiply this by 8 and BOOM. Instant bridge, perfectly RAW if you ascribe to the take that shifting can alter an item's size.
Folks continually keep trying to jam in cheese to the Shifting Rune and just WON'T stop, I don't get it, really, it's only Level 6 and I keep seeing flawed arguments trying to stretch the useful functions to the point where they're superior to effects two or three times its level. It's really simple, it does what it says and nothing more, including changing the Size of the Weapon. Quit stretching so much, you're going to strain something and in the process, you're pursuing the outcome you desire and ignoring the consequences of that decision which inform the intent and actual, you know, POWER that the interpretation opens up.
|
|
Nothing directly indicates length changes: Bulk increases don't translate into a comparable change in dimension in RAW. Further, Reach doesn't change so that Gargantuan Longspear hits JUST as far away [+5', see Rune Giant] as a Tiny Longspear [+5'].Ahem ... wrong... ahem.
While the Reach of the Weapon isn't changed the rest of the dimensions and stats absolutely would since Bulk is increased and that exists to communicates the ... well general Size of an item in both mechanical and conversational terms. That is unless you're trying to argue that since it doesn't have a defined X by Y by Z dimension then increasing the size of an Item doesn't actually... you know... change its size and in that case what you're trying to convince me of is that Amiri in art is drawn improperly because her Weapon should appear to be the same size and have the same dimensions as a Medium version of said Weapon.
An average Quarterstaff is a tad over 6 ft in length, about 1-inch in width, and has 1 bulk. Multiply this by 8 and BOOM. Instant bridge, perfectly RAW if you ascribe to the take that shifting can alter an item's size.
Folks continually keep trying to jam in cheese to the Shifting Rune and just WON'T stop, I don't get it, really, it's only Level 6 and I keep seeing flawed arguments trying to stretch the useful functions to the point where they're superior to effects two or three times its level. It's really simple, it does what it says and nothing more, including changing the Size of the Weapon. Quit stretching so much, you're going to strain something and in the process, you're pursuing the outcome you desire and ignoring the consequences of that decision which inform the intent and actual, you know, POWER that the interpretation opens up.
My references for spells changing the Size are Shrink (lvl 2) and Enlarge (also lvl 2).
Are there others of higher level that do things similar ?
|
|
My references for spells changing the Size are Shrink (lvl 2) and Enlarge (also lvl 2).
Are there others of higher level that do things similar ?
The best comparison here would be the Statuette Ritual that can take something that is already really big and make it really small and portable until the duration expires or they use another 10-minute Ritual to undo it and make the thing large again.
That's a LOT of investment to effectively do something weaker than a level 6 Shifting Rune can do, in a slower manner, and only being able to do this once and then only if you have multiple characters ready to participate in the Ritual itself which is a 6th Level Spell/Ritual. This ALSO comes with Critical Sucess, Success, Failure, and Critical Failure results so that would be another + in the Shifting Rune in terms of power since it just HAPPENS with 1 Interact Action that requires no training whatsoever.Again, I'm not exactly advocating that I think that this is badwrongfun or that GMs shouldn't rule on this how they feel is right for their game, heck I'll even admit that it would be a cool little thing to let someone do but I'm simply saying that the rules themselves do not support the idea that this is how does or was ever supposed to work as written.
|
|
I think Gargantuan weapons might easily be the same size as Huge creatures, or even smaller. A Medium sword is smaller than a human being after all.
The ritual also works on any freestanding object, not only a weapon, as long as it is nonmagical. All in all, it is pretty different from the Shifting rune IMO.
And its use is definitely not the same as changing weapon Size via Shifting for a Giant Barbarian. So I do not think it was made to tackle the same kind of power issues.
That said, I believe that we have no RAW here one way or the other. So, table variance it is :-/
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm. I found a previous thread with the same topic and though they did not find out a RAW we would have missed, there is IMO a very good argument given against the weapon changing Size :
the rune would also work to let someone who wants a large weapon get around the expense of a rare material for their weapon by first placing it on a smaller weapon, maybe even a Tiny weapon if that reduces the cost. So I'd say no.
While the Reach of the Weapon isn't changed the rest of the dimensions and stats absolutely would since Bulk is increased and that exists to communicates the ... well general Size of an item in both mechanical and conversational terms.
I think the word there should be 'SHOULD'. NOTHNG in the rules indicates if and how a size change on an item alters the base Medium item. SHOULD it? Sure. Does it? No where I can find as bulk isn't linked to actual dimensions, JUST how hard it is to carry: things got lost in the translation to bulk.
That is unless you're trying to argue that since it doesn't have a defined X by Y by Z dimension then increasing the size of an Item doesn't actually... you know... change its size and in that case what you're trying to convince me of is that Amiri in art is drawn improperly because her Weapon should appear to be the same size and have the same dimensions as a Medium version of said Weapon.
I'm saying the if it changes sizes and how much are 100% in the DM's hands as that is outside the RAW. Bulk doesn't NOT have a specific relation to size and there is no way to translate a change in it to a specific change in dimension.
An average Quarterstaff is a tad over 6 ft in length, about 1-inch in width, and has 1 bulk. Multiply this by 8 and BOOM.
And this is where you lost me. You take the Rune Giant and long spear it uses. A medium one is 8' and a human is 6': we use your method and we get a 40' giant using a 8'x8 or 64' longspear that somehow only reaches 25' away... What you are missing square–cube law which describes the relationship between the volume and the surface area as a shape's size increases or decreases: it states that, as a shape grows in size, its volume grows faster than its surface area. IE: with weight part of the factors of bulk, the volume increase means that it grow's quicker than the dimensions do. That's why the length of the longspear changed from +33% of the height of the creature to 60% as square–cube law was ignored.
Folks continually keep trying to jam in cheese to the Shifting Rune and just WON'T stop, I don't get it, really, it's only Level 6 and I keep seeing flawed arguments trying to stretch the useful functions to the point where they're superior to effects two or three times its level.
I'm not sure what's flawed: there is NO change when size changing of items other than bulk. As such, any argument that is based on such size changes is the flawed argument. The only way to stop such things would be actual rules to do so, either in the rune itself or actual rules for changing item size.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Shifting Rune changes the form of the Weapon, it says nothing about the Size of the Weapon being changed at all. Since it doesn't mention this statistic it does not interact with it at all.
It is clear that you can transform a Bastard Sword into a Stilleto Pen - both legal 1 handed weapons. That is a very significant difference in size and concealability.
Its just as easy to assume that the size statistic is not relevant or a limit on the power, because it is not mentioned.
Large Weapons, just like Rarity require the Character to be given stated "access" to the other option. If you aren't given "access" you don't have it as a valid option to choose from - full stop, this is one of the most defining and foundational rules of the system at large and the lack of verbiage regarding Size on the Rune is not an excuse to just assume that is supposed to be allowed and override the regular rules, after all, a lack of rules cannot ever be considered to be more "Specific" a rule than the "General" one.
Can you give me some support or a reference for this?
Using this kind of "because it doesn't say I can't" ruling would permit any Character with any Weapon to change it into a Tiny version of a similarly handed Weapon to make it trivially easy to hide on your person (My Longsword is now Tiny Shortsword and half the dimensions of a Shortsword with no Bulk) or even Gargantuan Version of a given two-handed Weapon to Shift and you instantly have a 50 ft tall Quarterstaff that is 8 inches thick and has a Bulk of 8. I'm certain this isn't the intent, otherwise, the Shifting Rune instantly becomes incredibly inexpensive at will permanent Wall Spell that you can change and fiddle with as a single action which could be used as an obstacle befitting a MUCH higher level or even a Bridge whenever you need it.
I do agree allowing this sort of interpretation would have undesireable
consequences. I'd probably look at the wording around requiring the same number of hands, and use that to enforce that the weapon remain wieldable with the same number of hands. Which would effectively limit it to zero or one size class change at the extreme.Because of the limited number of runes you can have on a weapon, I don't consider Shifting Rune to be a powerful rune.
Hmm. I found a previous thread with the same topic and though they did not find out a RAW we would have missed, there is IMO a very good argument given against the weapon changing Size :
the rune would also work to let someone who wants a large weapon get around the expense of a rare material for their weapon by first placing it on a smaller weapon, maybe even a Tiny weapon if that reduces the cost. So I'd say no.
1. Make tiny +1 shifting adamantine dagger.
2. Shift to gargantuan bastard sword.3. Melt down into adamantine bricks.
4. Profit.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm. I found a previous thread with the same topic and though they did not find out a RAW we would have missed, there is IMO a very good argument given against the weapon changing Size :
the rune would also work to let someone who wants a large weapon get around the expense of a rare material for their weapon by first placing it on a smaller weapon, maybe even a Tiny weapon if that reduces the cost. So I'd say no.1. Make tiny +1 shifting adamantine dagger.
2. Shift to gargantuan bastard sword.
3. Melt down into adamantine bricks.
4. Profit.
IMO, as it's magical it's fall under Long Durations
Source Core Rulebook pg. 305: "unlimited duration last until counteracted or Dismissed." So once the weapon is destroyed, it's no longer holding the rune which means it's revert to it's original form. It's a bit of an extrapolation as the actual mechanics of how items work is a bit sparce.|
|
Yes, I think it is easier to just skip step 3 and sell the Gargantuan weapon.
Except that anyone savvy in magical weapons will know and use this trick.
Definitely a good argument against Shifting changing the Size of the weapon. Indeed, a good argument against anything permanently increasing the Size of an object.
Now, an Improved Shifting rune that would also temporarily change the Size of the weapon could be a thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A part of why I like the shifting = bulk value to bulk value houserule... it is both more restrictive and permissive while maintaining the verisimilitude.
The whole handedness restriction brings up funky questions.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Large Weapons, just like Rarity require the Character to be given stated "access" to the other option. If you aren't given "access" you don't have it as a valid option to choose from - full stop, this is one of the most defining and foundational rules of the system at large and the lack of verbiage regarding Size on the Rune is not an excuse to just assume that is supposed to be allowed and override the regular rules, after all, a lack of rules cannot ever be considered to be more "Specific" a rule than the "General" one.
Can you show where in the book it actually states what the rarity of large+ weapons is?
Because if something doesn't have an Uncommon/Rare/Unique trait, it defaults to Common.