Bartleby the Scroll Scrivener

[Alys Kindletrick]

My apologies to the ghost of Herman Melville. Your thoughts and opinions about crafting scrolls are humbly solicited. Unless, of course, as the man said (over and over!), you “prefer not to.”

An astonishing amount of overthinking about Crafting scrolls:

I’ve been trying to understand what’s involved in scribing a scroll in Pathfinder Second Edition according to the rules and information found in the Second Edition Core Rulebook.

This post codifies what I believe to be all the information provided in that book about the subject at hand. It is structured as a set of questions, the rules I believe address that question, and my suppositions or tentative answers to those questions. Following, I sum up with my opinions about scribing scrolls.

Please note: Because of the complexity of both my suppositions and my general “findings,” it is my hope that I am wrong about some or all of this—even to the point to hoping that one or more responders simply say something along the lines of, “You’ve neglected to take into account the third paragraph on page 681 of the CRB,” or something along those lines. If that’s true, please be gentle![b][I]

All page numbers are references to the [I]Core Rulebook.

So, here we go.

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[b]Question #1: Do the rules and other information suggest that the scribing of scrolls is expected to be a common and relatively simple downtown activity?

Supporting rules and information: In the general description of the Sorcerer class at p. 191, the first sentence in the “In downtime…” paragraph reads: “You craft magic items or scribe scrolls.” In the general description of the Wizard class at p. 203, in the “While exploring…” paragraph says that wizards “probably have a scroll” to overcome obstacles. Similar to the Sorcerer entry, the “In downtime…” paragraph for Wizards reads: “You learn new spells, craft magic items, or scribe scrolls for your party…” Somewhat less germane, but suggestive; the “Crafting a Scroll” information at p. 565 begins with this sentence: “The process to Craft a scroll is much like that to Craft any other magic item.”

Supposition: The scribing (or “Crafting”) of scrolls is meant to be a relatively straightforward and common activity.

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Question #2: Where and what are the rules for Crafting a scroll?

Supporting rules and information: Crafting (skill) at pp. 243-245 in Chapter 4, Skills; Magical Crafting at p. 263in Chapter 5, Feats; Magical Items and Formulas at p. 293 in Chapter 6, Equipment; Level-Based DCs at p. 503 in Chapter 10, Game Mastering; Craft at p. 504 (Chapter 10); Craft Requirements at p.535 in Chapter 11, Crafting and Treasure; Crafting a Scroll and Sample Scrolls at p. 565 (Chapter 11); and possibly other relevant rules I’ve missed.

Supposition: The complete rules for Crafting a scroll are not in one place, but are spread across at least five chapters throughout the Core Rulebook. This lends lack of clarity.

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Question #3: Is a formula necessary for the Crafting of a scroll, as it is for all other crafted items, including magic items? How much does such a formula cost?

Supporting rules and information: Magical items, including scrolls, require a formula for their Crafting, just as mundane items do according to the information under Items With Multiple Types at pp. 293-294, which uses bags of holding as the example for required formulas.

Supposition: A formula is required to Craft a scroll, and the price for the formula is to be found by comparing Table 6-13: Formulas (p. 293) and Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics (p. 565). For example, the formula for a 3rd level spell compares its level (5, per Table 11-3) and the price for a formula of a particular level per Table 6-13, yielding a price of 8 gp. Note well, the price of the formula necessary for Crafting a spell scroll is independent of and different from the price for the actual scroll, if such a scroll was even found available for sale. In this example, for instance, the price of purchasing a scroll of a level 3 spell is 30 gp, compared to the 8 gp for the formula for the same scroll.

Despite the example above using a 3rd level spell, the rules support throughout the CRB only extends to 1st level spells, since they are the only ones listed as common items in the Equipment chapter. The price for a 1st level spell’s formula is 1 gp (p. 293).

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Question #4: What is the specific process for Crafting a scroll and what are the material and monetary requirements to do so?

Supporting rules and information: The most basic rules for Crafting an item are covered in four bullet points at page 244. In sum, the requirements listed, understood through the prism of scroll scribing, are these: (1) the item must be the Crafters item or lower (levels of scrolls are in Table 11-3 Scroll Statistics at p. 565); (2) the Crafter must possess the formula for the item (formulas for common first level scrolls are, by implication, available in the same manner as any other common item in Chapter 6—see Table 6-12: Magical Gear and the Formulas information with supporting table at p. 293; (3) the Crafter must have an appropriate set of tools and a space to work—the 1 gp Writing Set described at p. 292 specifically mentions scroll scribing; presumably any place where writing and casting can be safely done will do as a scribing “workshop,” and: (4) raw materials worth at least half the item’s price (though this is a little misleading). Prices for scrolls of all levels are to be found in Table 11-3 at p. 565.

Crafting an item takes 4 days, at which point a Crafting check is made against a DC determined by the GM (note that this is a little loosey-goosey for purposes of organized play). Guidance for setting DCs is at pp. 503-504 in the Game Mastering chapter, with information specifically covering Crafting to be found on p. 504. As consumables, scrolls can be scribed in batches of four with one Crafting check to determine success for all four. Four castings of the spell and whatever constitutes the material costs (special inks and papers, presumably, plus any specific costs for components listed in the given spell’s description).

There are additional rules on how much needs to be spent of the 4 gp for a common first level scroll that mostly adjust the price down (or takes the full amount to finish the crafting immediately).

Supposition: The rules for crafting are much better suited for common items and non-consumable magic items than they are for scrolls (and presumably potions and other magic consumables).

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Question #5: Where and what are the rules for Crafting a scroll of at level higher than 1st?

Supporting rules and information/supposition; The rules remain the same except for progressions in Crafting costs and difficulty classes. However, there is no information about how to gain access to formulas for higher level scrolls anywhere I can find in the CRB.

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Question #6: What is the minimum character level at which a character may Craft a scroll?

Supporting rules and information: The crafting rules at page 244 state that characters need “the Magical Crafting skill feat to to create magic items…” Magical Crafting is a 2nd level skill feat found at page 263. It has the General and Skill traits (the associated skill is Crafting). The feat has a prerequisite of expert level training in Crafting. In addition to enabling the Crafting of magic items (like scrolls) and a character taking the feat gains four formulas for common magic items of 2nd level or lower. The key thing here is that a character must be expert at Crafting. As near as I have been able to determine, there is no way for any spellcaster to meet the prerequisite before 3rd level. Assuming a spellcasting character takes training in Crafting at 1st level during character creation, or at 2nd level when when they receive their first Skill feat, the earliest that they can achieve expert level with the skill increase at 3rd level.

Supposition: The minimum level a spellcasting character can Craft a scroll (or any other magic item) is 3rd level.

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Final Thoughts

I believe that the rules for scribing/Crafting spells are too diffuse and insufficiently clear.

In the case of Wizards, I believe having a given spell in one’s spell book should be considered as having that spell’s formula.

In the case of Sorcerers, I believe that having a given spell in one’s repertoire should be considered as having that spell’s formula.

I don’t know enough about the other spell casting classes to have an informed opinion.

I believe there should be rules support by which 1st level characters capable of the Cast a Spell activity may scribe/Craft scrolls.

My beliefs don’t count for much, and I will of course follow the rules as I understand them, even if they do seem to be kind of unwieldy.

[shroudb]

there has been a bit back and forth considering the crafting of scrolls and wands.

as i understand it, and as i think most people here agree it is, the formulas are based on the level of the scroll/wand.

so, as an example, you need the formula of "scroll level 1" and with this formula you can craft every level 1 scroll you can provide the spellcasting components for.

for level 2 scrolls, you need the "scroll level 2 " formula.

and so on.

as for where to find those formulas, they should be the exact same as any other, equal level, formula.

[Alys Kindletrick]

shroudb wrote:

there has been a bit back and forth considering the crafting of scrolls and wands.

as i understand it, and as i think most people here agree it is, the formulas are based on the level of the scroll/wand.

so, as an example, you need the formula of "scroll level 1" and with this formula you can craft every level 1 scroll you can provide the spellcasting components for.

for level 2 scrolls, you need the "scroll level 2 " formula.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. But where's the actual written rules support for that? My immediate reaction is that the notion you've reported suggests that if all 1st level scrolls depend on the same formula, then, by extension, all light armors depend on the same formula, all martial weapons, all of any craft-able family of items sharing a trait you can name.

Additionally, the example provided under the "Items with Multiple Types" header at pp. 293-294 suggests to me that formulas are way more specific than what you're suggesting, don't you think?

shroudb wrote:

as for where to find those formulas, they should be the exact same as any other, equal level, formula.

Well, that's just the thing, isn't it? What is the "exact same?" The only references I can find anywhere in the CRB regarding formula sources for anything beyond the common items in Chapter 6 are to the "free" ones you get in a few of the Crafting related skill feats.

Edited to Add: Hilariously, the free formulas that are earned by taking the Magical Item Crafting feat are for second level or lower items, so they're of limited use for scrolls anyway. According to Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics at p. 565, which compares spell level to item level, there's no such thing as a second level scroll, hah!

[shroudb]

Apart from using Inventor feat to get the formula.
You can also reverse engineer an item to get the forumal as it says on the crafting skill.
and you also can buy them directly from a shop.
or you can copy them from someone else

Quote:

Formulas are instructions for making items with the Craft activity. You can usually read a formula as long as you can read the language it’s written in, though you might lack the skill to Craft the item. Often, alchemists and crafting guilds use obscure languages or create codes to protect their formulas from rivals.

You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill. Formulas for uncommon items and rare items are usually significantly more valuable—if you can find them at all!

If you have an item, you can try to reverse-engineer its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the same amount of time as creating the item from a formula would. You must first disassemble the item. After the base downtime, you attempt a Crafting check against the same DC it would take to Craft the item. If you succeed, you Craft the formula at its full Price, and you can keep working to reduce the Price as normal. If you fail, you’re left with raw materials and no formula. If you critically fail, you also waste 10% of the raw materials you’d normally be able to salvage.

The item’s disassembled parts are worth half its Price in raw materials and can’t be reassembled unless you successfully reverse-engineer the formula or acquire the formula another way. Reassembling the item from the formula works just like Crafting it from scratch; you use the disassembled parts as the necessary raw materials.

As for scrolls and wands formula the reasoning is quite simple:

Quote:

A scroll contains a single spell that you can cast without having to expend a spell slot.1 A scroll can be Crafted to contain nearly any spell, so the types of scrolls available are limited only by the number of spells in the game. The exceptions are cantrips, focus spells, and rituals, 2 none of which can be put on scrolls. The spell on a scroll can be cast only once, and the scroll is destroyed as part of the casting. 3 The spell on the scroll is cast at a particular spell level, as determined by the scroll. For instance, a scroll of magic missile (1st level) can be used to cast the 1st-level version of magic missile, but not a magic missile heightened to 2nd level. If no level is listed, the scroll can be used to cast the spell at its lowest level.

1: pretty self explanatory, you can craft a scroll to contain any kind of spell

2: that passage shows that you put Spells IN the scroll. So, the activity to craft the scroll is more like "i craft a scroll and put X in it" rather than "i craft a scroll of X"

3: the scroll is the thing that determines the level of the spell. It's not the "specific spell" that determines the type of the scroll.

then we look at the Equipment section and we see that for scrolls it doesn't list "specific spells" but it does list "specific scroll levels"

In short, in the equipment guide the item is "scroll level 1".

Combining the 2 passages together we see that the "magic item" is the "scroll". And that magic item can conatin any kind of appropriate spell for its level.

That's way different than "specific armors" where each one is a sepearate item, clearly described and having a seperate entry.

As i said, there has been a bit of back and forth on this subject, so you can rule it hoever you want in your games, i just gave you what I and a lot of other believe to be the correct way to craft them.

[mrspaghetti]

Alys Kindletrick wrote:

According to Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics at p. 565, which compares spell level to item level, there's no such thing as a second level scroll, hah!

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously there are scrolls with second level spells, but since a second level spell is something that becomes available to a character only upon reaching third level, scrolls and other items granting access to second level spells and effects are normally third level items, and so on for higher level spells. You may be confused between spell level and character level.

Magical Crafting would allow you to get a free formula for "1st Level Scroll" if you wanted it. If you wanted the formulas for higher level scrolls you'd just have to pay for those formulas.

As for only 1st level scrolls being common, that is just completely wrong. Table 6-12 in the Equipment chapter is a convenient list of items "that a 1st level character could most frequently access." It is not comprehensive in any way. Any spell or item that does not have a rarity tag is common. (See the definition of "rarity" on page 635 CRB).

[Alys Kindletrick]

mrspaghetti wrote:

Alys Kindletrick wrote:

According to Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics at p. 565, which compares spell level to item level, there's no such thing as a second level scroll, hah!

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously there are scrolls with second level spells, but since a second level spell is something that becomes available to a character only upon reaching third level, scrolls and other items granting access to second level spells and effects are normally third level items, and so on for higher level spells. You may be confused between spell level and character level.

Not at all, heh. I just think the number of different ways the word "level" is used in these games is hilarious. It's something that has sometimes mystified but generally amused me since 1983 or so.

You folks really didn't take that bit about being gentle if there was an answer I'd overlooked at all seriously, did you?

Peace to all!

[mrspaghetti]

Alys Kindletrick wrote:

You folks really didn't take that bit about being gentle if there was an answer I'd overlooked at all seriously, did you?

Peace to all!

If my response seems ungentle to you, please know that was not the intent. Written comments can be interpreted a number of ways, I was just trying to understand and answer your questions. I hope you will view my words in that light.

[Alys Kindletrick]

Quote:

If my response seems ungentle to you, please know that was not the intent. Written comments can be interpreted a number of ways, I was just trying to understand and answer your questions. I hope you will view my words in that light.

Thank you, sincerely!

[Staffan Johansson]

Alys Kindletrick wrote:

Not at all, heh. I just think the number of different ways the word "level" is used in these games is hilarious. It's something that has sometimes mystified but generally amused me since 1983 or so.

Mandatory reference.