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I will start out by saying I absolutely love 2e and feel the options combined with combat are just great.
I have been playing PFS once a week with my brother and love it. My brother GMs weekly campaign and I am just not having as much fun with it.
Most of the players are from 5e and we are level 7 in Extinction Curse.
The main issue I am having is I have to constantly correct everything. No one in the group is as "invested" as me.
I 100% know the rules better than anyone. During gameplay even the GM constantly is asking me things and I have to correct things constantly. It really ruins the fun, also I am not sure 3 of the players have even read any rules other than the character page on AoN.
Now our GM 100% got rid of secret rolls. It just makes me sad. So now everyone just rolls for everything since we know which info is correct. He literally let us roll 12 recall knowledge checks (3 per character) on a golem/chalice not even in the room so of course "we succeeded" and knew all the information. I begged him for secret rolls and I was really enjoying them but we took a break for a month and now no one has used them.
Some GMs are like this in PFS too, where they rarely use secret checks.
The biggest problem is the GM constantly just makes up rules. He was letting players catch items as reactions and throw them all without making any checks. He does these things "for fun" but I think other players think they are actually rules and invalidates feats all the time by giving people free things, not to mention he let's players use diplomacy to get more gold.
He also let a player be a "homebrewed Bear as a hobgoblin ancestry". It has really hurt the groups effectiveness and has led to weird things. Luckily that character is trying a Fighter now.
The GM is so worried about killing people that he gives us crazy advantages for no reason. Our ranger bear was "unconscious" and dropped his weapons. The GM said oh "you have 2x gauntlets of striking +1 equipped since you found them" "we actually only had 1 between our whole group" so you can just attack... the character never equipped them." Just so no one died and we won easily after that. He does this all the time.
Overall I was REALLY REALLY looking forward to playing 2e but am just running into issues with our campaign. Maybe since the GM is my brother it actually makes things worse but I really wanted to "play by the book".
What I feel like saying is... could you all please actually read the rules? Also could you please stop making up rules non stop?
That would be quite rude and people would probably stop wanting to play.
"He also let a player be a "homebrewed Bear as a hobgoblin ancestry". It has really hurt the groups effectiveness and has led to weird things. Luckily that character is trying a Fighter now."
Ah i think they posted on reddit, this seems mighty familiar.
There is nothing wrong with bringing up what you are feeling to the group, rudeness is how you do something in this case. Not that you did it at all.
Really it sounds like you would be better off GMing and implementing some learning tools (eg. Get a player to explain what an ability does before using it and vocalise each step)
Or just find a group that plays how you like to play.
I also play with a GM that gives us everything for free, every combat is a cakewalk, he doesn't like the feeling of difficulty, he gets anxious and enemies just give up, or start doing dumb crap, like provoking AOs or just not attacking for a "flavor reason"
My advice would be "find your own fun" Sometimes if you want to play you have to endure certain annoying things, better is to concentrate on the things you like, rather than the ones that makes you want to stop playing.
Maybe just talk casually with him, tell him you would like to play "more" from the the book, but in my experience that never works... Concentrate on yourself, when the gm gives you something for free, without investment tell him; no, I dont get to do that, its ok...
Sounds like you either need to find a different group, GM the group yourself or try to match their pace/find something else to have fun with.
If they like this easy mode kind of play that's good for them, maybe you could instead try roleplaying more and have fun with that and if the GM can reciprocate.
Honestly before we took a month break the game was going for smoothly. Then all of a sudden the GM decided "zero secret checks were better" and it makes me sad. PFS the people that use secret checks make the game so much better imo.
Overall I will try to not care so much when rules aren't followed if they don't matter much. The bear luckily is switching to Fighter finally so things will actually make since.
The biggest problem imo is players don't put much effort into learning basic mechanics and the GM sometimes is in the same boat. If players knew the rules I wouldn't have to correct so much stuff :( People also confuse other editions and it doesn't seem to be stopping.
I thought with time things would get better but I am not 100% sure players including the GM actually looks over any rules when we aren't playing.
The worse part when we were fighting and the GM gave a character 2 gauntlets of striking +1 out of nowhere since we found them in the dungeon... we actually just sold some at town.
It just feels like why are we even playing a game if when anyone is in Danger you just "save them with a random thing".
I also forgot to add for the most part I actually really enjoyed the session before our last one. There were just so many weird things going on this sessions with made up rules and players now are making very negative comments about why they dislike 2e, this was before I said anything. Mainly that 2e feels bad because of how we get knocked out all the time.
Maybe it is just too ask players to learn the rules outside the game. Since I have to explain so many things when I am trying to just play the game and have never been in this position before.
I kind of feel like I should have been the GM since I have to answer so correct so many things. Like two sessions ago the GM was saying "oh he is flat-footed so he loses his dex bonus"
You could always try to convince your GM to set aside an hour or so to go over basic rules with the players.
I started with new players recently and at some point we were switching sheets and I took an hour or so to fill them out with them to get them a better sense of the rules. And I start each sessions with things we did wrong the last session and repeating any new rules we learned.
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One thing that will help them learn the new rules faster is if you simplify the amount of information you're giving them.
Decide before each session which rule (or 2 or 3) is most critical to the game going well. During that session, speak up with corrections when you see people misusing those rules, but ignore any other rules they don't get right.
And give positive responses when they get it right. Even a vigorous head-nod and big smile can give them the dopamine jolt that helps them keep doing the right thing.
Next session, decide whether they "got it" for the important rules last time. If not, repeat with the rules that you want to stress.
Or you might notice that they got one rule down well, so you keep on with the other two, but add one new one to focus on. And keep smiling and nodding when they get something right that you're trying to reinforce.
Flooding the game with corrections both big and small is confusing and doesn't help them focus on learning a new rule. Too many 'you did that wrong' statements just lead to feelings of being overwhelmed.
You don't have to be the GM to teach everyone the rules. And you don't even have to get the GM to go along. Just channel your rules-lawyer tendencies into one rule at a time.
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I 100% know the rules better than anyone. During gameplay even the GM constantly is asking me things and I have to correct things constantly. It really ruins the fun, also I am not sure 3 of the players have even read any rules other than the character page on AoN.
I know more obscure rules than my players, but they know enough for regular play. The only real problem is sometimes misapplying PF1 rules to the PF2 game. If we encounter a rule that nobody knows, then I make up something plausible and continue playing, while my wife looks up the rule in Archives of Nethys for future use (if I stopped to look up the rule, the gameplay would stop).
The biggest problem is the GM constantly just makes up rules. He was letting players catch items as reactions and throw them all without making any checks. He does these things "for fun" but I think other players think they are actually rules and invalidates feats all the time by giving people free things, not to mention he let's players use diplomacy to get more gold.
If anyone finds an official rule about tossing an object meant to be caught by a recipient, then please let me know. I ran a game session where someone tossed an item to another PC in mid-combat. I realized I did not know the rule for tossing, so I made up an Athletics check on the spot. My wife found nothing in Archives of Hethys. After the game, I searched the PF2 Core Rulebook and the Paizo forums for the true rule. I found one short thread, Throw an object to someone. As far as I can tell, a non-attack toss is merely an Interact action, and Interact actions don't have skill checks.
Now our GM 100% got rid of secret rolls. It just makes me sad. So now everyone just rolls for everything since we know which info is correct. He literally let us roll 12 recall knowledge checks (3 per character) on a golem/chalice not even in the room so of course "we succeeded" and knew all the information. I begged him for secret rolls and I was really enjoying them but we took a break for a month and now no one has used them.
I never bothered with secret rolls. Rolling dice is fun so I let my players have the fun. The players have their skill bonuses memorized, so them roll for themselves is faster, too. They are great about roleplaying the false knowledge I tell them on a critically failed Recall Knowledge roll. They fought morlocks in the last two game sessions. The tailed goblin champion rolled to identify them and learned that they were morlocks and that they had Climb Speed 20. That was relevant tactical information to the champion, since she had Climb Speed 10. Then the elf ranger rolled for further information, critically failed, and learned that morlocks can time travel, so one of their attacks is erasing a person from history. That was relevant tactical information for him, because the morlocks were attacking his home town. The player hammed it up, "Don't let them learn your name!"
The GM is so worried about killing people that he gives us crazy advantages for no reason. Our ranger bear was "unconscious" and dropped his weapons. The GM said oh "you have 2x gauntlets of striking +1 equipped since you found them" "we actually only had 1 between our whole group" so you can just attack... the character never equipped them." Just so no one died and we won easily after that. He does this all the time.
My players want a challenge. Cylar Nann sounds like he wants a challenge, too. I like seeing how the players rise to the challenge.
Hero points can prevent death, though my players prefer to spend them for rerolls. Tell Cylar Nann's GM to give out more hero points and stop worrying.
What I feel like saying is... could you all please actually read the rules? Also could you please stop making up rules non stop?
I am a mathematician who can memorize abstract theorems that are mind-numbingly boring to students, but I cannot read the Core Rulebook from beginning to end. Thus, I seek sources that are lighter reading. I fanatically read the forums so that I learn obscure aspects of the rules that came up in other people's games. I am also converting a PF1 adventure path to PF2, which forces me to read up on more rules and creatures.
Some of my players uses aids such as Pathbuilder. Maybe Cylar Nann's GM can look into similar aids.
It is odd because the player with the most RPG experience is the one who I have to correct because he keeps trying to do things 100% not in the rules.
For example he threw a chalice to another play so the GM just let him catch it with "a reaction". Then the GM was going then let the play spend 1 action to identify the item in combat.
Also this was all done by a homebrew bear who had his hands full...
I talked to the GM after the game saying it could really lead to unbalanced thing if players can just throw items around for nothing. He said "it is fair it still uses one action".
Honestly I know as a player I should let the GM do whatever but it really bothers me that he doesn't put much effort in to learning rule. He actually told me "The rules state it is okay to throw items and if your hands are full it was within the rules because the character could "freely" hold two shortswords in one hand and then move the weapon back to the other hand for 0 actions.
Sometimes I almost want to cry when I hear stuff like that. He is my brother but how can someone who said he wanted to GM decide these sort of things are actually within the RAW.
I admit PF2E rules can sometimes confusing and I have seen a lot of GMs on PFS mess up simple rules. There was an entire party saying that Frightened doesn't effect AC and that was just one example. PFS stealth into combat has been very weird.
I am a mathematician who can memorize abstract theorems that are mind-numbingly boring to students, but I cannot read the Core Rulebook from beginning to end. Thus, I seek sources that are lighter reading. I fanatically read the forums so that I learn obscure aspects of the rules that came up in other people's games. I am also converting a PF1 adventure path to PF2, which forces me to read up on more rules and creatures.
Some of my players uses aids such as Pathbuilder. Maybe Cylar Nann's GM can look into similar aids.
We used VTTs but I guess it is just sad to me that he seems to put very little effort, I have to explain basic interact rules to the GM. I was kind of hoping the GM would look up stuff online but I 100% have to look everything up if a rule is unclear. It wasn't exactly that specific rule that bothered me it was just the whole day was so "rules light" it just bothered me. The whole oh your are unconscious characters "surprise you actually have gauntlets equipped out of no where so you can attack without picking anything up" that really upset me. Also there were just a few things that made for a frustrating adventure day.
I understand not everyone is anywhere near as interested in PF2E as me but I guess I didn't expect that I would have to explain basic interact actions to every player/GM like 20 sessions in. Also the GM/1 Player pulls out rules out of nowhere from other systems. I think it was like 2 sessions ago where the GM said "oh that creature is flat footed so he loses his dex bonuses". That is a time I had to step in and say NO that is a different system.
Here's what you need to do:
- Grab a copy of the Core Rulebook and a tindertwig.
- Set the book on fire and burn it to a fine powdery ash.
- Mix the powder into a bowl of your GM's favorite soup.
- Have him eat the concoction so that he may better absorb its knowledge.
It's the only way.
;P
I'm not sure why Pathfinder Society is coming into this. It doesn't sound like the group is abiding by any of the rules that govern Society.
The whole point of Society is that you sacrifice some player/character options in return for a universally agreed set of rules. The whole point is that you can't homebrew classes or get over-tiered weapons.
It sounds like you want to play PFS but your GM and the other players don't. That's fine - you should look up PFS games and play those away from your group, and then chill out with the homebrew system your brother wants to play. Enjoy both, don't try to make your friends play a game they clearly don't want to play.
I play PFS without my family. I play PF with my family. I enjoy both ... just separately.
There are a lot of rules in PF2. Some of them in odd places. I would not worry about it too much as long as the game is fun to play.
I've tossed out a bunch of stuff like requiring two actions to draw two weapons, interact actions to switch from 1 to 2 hands on a weapon, and small rule that doesn't add to the fun of the game.
I rewrote some classes to make them more interesting. Integrated 5E casting. And did things to make the game easier to play and more fun.
If they're not messing up on too many rules, just go with it.
Mostly it was just an odd session last time and I am not sure what is going to happen.
It wasn't 100% the rule that made me post the thread. It was more the general negative players have when we/I explain the rules, I think Extinction Curse sadly has just been too brutal for new players.
Once one players complained that flourishes being once per round was a "bad mechanic" all of a sudden people stated...
My turns are so boring because the best thing is just throw bombs/electric arc.(alchemist), he 100% will not use anything but damage even though recall knowledge would be helpful.
They definitely dont like that monsters pretty much are as strong as players. They stated whenever I get stronger so do the monsters so it isnt fun.
I am so surprised ANYONE could say combat in 5e is more interesting.
They also hate that there are "useless feats" they have to "waste time" reading. I am realizing that 2 of the players feel any feat not 100% combat oriented is useless.
So I am not even sure how to resolve this or if we should just give up.
Also is there a way to delete this thread. I really dont want anyone in the group it see it. I was just really frustrated last night since everything was really odd and a player negative reaction to "bad mechanics" just got to me.
They definitely don't like that monsters pretty much are as strong as players. They stated whenever I get stronger so do the monsters so it isn't fun.
That isn't true though. If you fight an adult black dragon at level 9, it's going to be a rough fight for the whole party. Come back and fight the same adult black dragon at level 13, and a single PC might be able to take the monster out single-handedly.
Since they've voiced that concern, then the GM should consider letting them face larger numbers of weaker enemies more often. There are few things that will better make a PC feel like a *big damn hero* than easily trouncing a whole bunch of monsters that gave them a hard time just a couple levels ago.
I don't know if there's a way to delete the thread, but you can always apologize for anything that you felt like you overreacted to, or wished you said differently.
Look, gaming is hard sometimes. Be thankful for the things you have - you have a group that wants to play together. You're not fighting over who is GM. You've got a lot going for you. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
You can edit or delete your thread posts only within the first hour of having created it. Once that timer has passed, you need to talk to Paizo customer support.
I did send an email to support but havent even recieved a "we recieved you email reply" that I get from most companies.
I did send an email to support but havent even recieved a "we recieved you email reply" that I get from most companies.
Don't think I've ever seen one myself from Paizo.
Due to the pandemic, they're having to work through a HUGE backlog of requests too.
I did send an email to support but havent even recieved a "we recieved you email reply" that I get from most companies.
Customer service is a couple thousand emails behind. IIRC, they're working on early August at this point.
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Another aspect to remember is it seems your group came from 5E where the rules are MUCH more free-form. Many of the actions you describe that are codified in PF2E are not in D&D5E so they may just be used to flying loose with the rules.
One thing you need to find out is if their lack of rules knowledge stems from a lack of reading or a lack of interest. If the latter, it doesn't matter how hard you try they will not take the game as seriously as you do. In that case, you either have to accept it and go with the flow, or find a new group that has the same style of level of rules interest that you do. Its unfortunately, but reality. Not all players, not even all friends, like their games the same way. There are a number of people I consider friends that I chose not to game with and that's okay. We have other interests in common.