Hi everyone.
The bard PC in my group has taken this cantrip, and after reading it I have some questions about how to run it correctly. I think it is quite open to interpretation, and I would like to know how other GMS run/adjudicate it.
House of Imaginary Walls Cantrip 5
Uncommon Bard Cantrip Composition Illusion Visual
Source Core Rulebook pg. 386 1.1
Cast Single Action somatic
Range touch
Duration 1 round
You mime creating an invisible 10-foot-by-10-foot stretch of wall adjacent to you and within your reach. The wall is solid to those creatures that don't disbelieve it, even incorporeal creatures. You and your allies can voluntarily believe the wall exists to continue to treat it as solid, for instance to climb onto it. A creature that disbelieves the illusion is temporarily immune to your house of imaginary walls for 1 minute. The wall doesn't block creatures that didn't see your visual performance, nor does it block objects. The wall has AC 10, Hardness equal to double the spell's level, and HP equal to quadruple the spell's level.
- The spell creates "an invisible 10-foot-by-10-foot stretch of wall adjacent to you and within your reach". The description seems ambiguous regarding how thick it is. Should it be a 10-foot length/5-foot width/10-foot high wall? (4 squares in total) or is it a 10x10x10 wall? (8 squares in total)
- "The wall is solid to those creatures that don't disbelieve it, even incorporeal creatures". Ok, so according to the general rules regarding illusions (Core Rulebook pg.298), if a creature tries to step through the invisible wall, it should roll a Perception check against the caster Spell DC (this cantrip is not a mental effect, so Will shouldn't be used). Is this correct?
- Are the caster's allies affected by the wall by default? It seems they are not affected because they are given a choice to consider the wall solid when that is beneficial in some way.
- The description says that "The wall doesn't block creatures that didn't see your visual performance, nor does it block objects". So, if an enemy fires a crossbow through the wall, does it have to roll Perception to disbelieve (the bolt interacts with the wall), or does the bolt go through the invisible wall unimpeded? I use a crossbow as an example, but this question should apply to any weapon that can reach a character on the other side of the wall. I think the general question should be: is there a difference between an object wielded by a creature and an object that is not wielded when establishing if the object ignores the wall or not?
- The last part of the spell talks about the statistics (AC, Hardness, and HP). However, unlike most of the other "wall" spells that I have read, it doesn't say that the wall is immune to critical hits and precision damage, so I assume you can crit it and also deal sneak attack damage. Is this correct?
Thanks!
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1. I believe it's a 2 dimensional wall, so 10 feet high, 10 feet wide. It would go on an edge of your square. It would probably be like a foot, so you could climb it and sit on top and what not, but mechanically it doesn't matter since it doesn't mention thickness anywhere.
2. Yea it would use perception.
3. Most of the time, allies would not be affected by an allies illusions, as they would likely tell them ahead of time that they use illusions and what to look out for. I would think if the creature failed, they wouldn't be able to use melee strikes. They would believe the strikes are hitting the wall. Meanwhile projectiles would move through it, but if the creature fails to disbelieve they might THINK their arrow bounced off an invisible wall and stop using them.
4. It would be an object and have object immunities, assuming they fail the perception check.
I think it is important to note that if they think the wall is real they won't even try to fire a bolt at it.
Not unless they have another reason to do so. Like an ally telling them to because its not real, or seeing something pass through the wall.
It's invisible, so it'd be hard to tell your party about its placement w/o also telling your enemy unless y'all know a language they don't.
Telling somebody about an illusion, especially before the illusion's present, does not convey immunity. They can tactically act as if it's an illusion, but that doesn't make the illusion's effects alter.
I might allow such knowledge to give an automatic save attempt, except that could be bothersome for when they do want to believe in it.
It's invisible, so it'd be hard to tell your party about its placement w/o also telling your enemy unless y'all know a language they don't...
...except that could be bothersome for when they do want to believe in it.
These particular issues shouldn't apply to this spell.
1) As it does one very specific thing, player characters should be able to tell each other about it before it is ever used in a fight. Unlike many illusions whose strength lie in their ability to seem like anything.
2) This particular spell says you can choose to believe it whenever it is beneficial to you.
Coincidentally, this makes this spell one of the best candidates for free disbelief attempts from allies. I say attempts because PF2 illusions don't shut off just because you have good reason to believe your senses are fooling you.
I think it is important to note that if they think the wall is real they won't even try to fire a bolt at it.
Not unless they have another reason to do so. Like an ally telling them to because its not real, or seeing something pass through the wall.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.
The wall is invisible and if you are a bad guy you can clearly see your enemies (the PCs) on the other side of it. I honestly can't think of a reason why you can't fire a bolt at it, as you could against a Wall of Force for example, to take it down and reach them.
Even if there are no PCs in sight, the enemy might just want to take the wall down to keep moving, because (insert reason for bad guy to move from point A to point B)
1. I believe it's a 2 dimensional wall, so 10 feet high, 10 feet wide. It would go on an edge of your square. It would probably be like a foot, so you could climb it and sit on top and what not, but mechanically it doesn't matter since it doesn't mention thickness anywhere.
2. Yea it would use perception.
3. Most of the time, allies would not be affected by an allies illusions, as they would likely tell them ahead of time that they use illusions and what to look out for. I would think if the creature failed, they wouldn't be able to use melee strikes. They would believe the strikes are hitting the wall. Meanwhile projectiles would move through it, but if the creature fails to disbelieve they might THINK their arrow bounced off an invisible wall and stop using them.
4. It would be an object and have object immunities, assuming they fail the perception check.
Thank you for answering all the questions, much appreciated!
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The spell requires a performance of the PC miming the wall. You could tell your allies that if you mime a wall it's not actually a real wall, unless they want it to be. It also doesn't affect anyone who didn't see you mime the wall, so an enemy around the corner when you cast the spell isn't affected.
I think it is important to note that if they think the wall is real they won't even try to fire a bolt at it.
Not unless they have another reason to do so. Like an ally telling them to because its not real, or seeing something pass through the wall.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.
The wall is invisible and if you are a bad guy you can clearly see your enemies (the PCs) on the other side of it. I honestly can't think of a reason why you can't fire a bolt at it, as you could against a Wall of Force for example, to take it down and reach them.
Even if there are no PCs in sight, the enemy might just want to take the wall down to keep moving, because (insert reason for bad guy to move from point A to point B)
Simply because they believe there is a wall there and believe it is an effective barrier, that is they believe that firing a bolt through the wall is going to fail.
Else what are they believing?
Simply because they believe there is a wall there and believe it is an effective barrier, that is they believe that firing a bolt through the wall is going to fail.
Else what are they believing?
I think they believe there is a invisible wall where there is none; not that they cannot do anything about it with the weapon in hand. If the intent of the wall is to act as a "demoralizing barrier" as you say, the description probably would say something like "the enemies believe the wall is impenetrable and cannot take offensive actions against it". Or something like that.
Also the fact that the spell tells you the AC, Hardness and hitpoints means IMHO that enemies should be able to interact violently with the imaginary wall if they don't disbelieve it.
You may argue that a specific enemy may not know what spell it is dealing with, and because of this lack of knowledge, tries to avoid the wall instead of hitting it to destroy it. But I think that is a different type of discussion that depends on the type of creature/personality/background.
Simply because they believe there is a wall there and believe it is an effective barrier, that is they believe that firing a bolt through the wall is going to fail.
Else what are they believing?I think they believe there is a invisible wall where there is none; not that they cannot do anything about it with the weapon in hand. If the intent of the wall is to act as a "demoralizing barrier" as you say, the description probably would say something like "the enemies believe the wall is impenetrable and cannot take offensive actions against it". Or something like that.
Also the fact that the spell tells you the AC, Hardness and hitpoints means IMHO that enemies should be able to interact violently with the imaginary wall if they don't disbelieve it.
You may argue that a specific enemy may not know what spell it is dealing with, and because of this lack of knowledge, tries to avoid the wall instead of hitting it to destroy it. But I think that is a different type of discussion that depends on the type of creature/personality/background.
Sure they can shoot at the wall, but they shouldn't be shooting through the wall. If they fail their check then they shouldn't be targeting creatures through the wall at all unless they have a good reason to.
The wall is invisible. It only exists in the mind of those the believe it, and in the reality for those the believe it. For everyone else it doesn't exist and doesn't block sight. Presumably there is some aura about it so they are aware there is a spell effect there, when they make their perception check. Even if it requires a detect magic to be aware of it.
So what do those that believe it think they see? A solid wall.
Do they think they are seeing an invisible wall of force? Or perhaps in their minds it is visible?
The fact that the wall has AC and hardness proves that you can attack it. And as such, even if objects can pass through (as they obviously don't have to make a save) someone's weapons will not if he believes in the wall. It's the magic of illusions!
The fact that the wall has AC and hardness proves that you can attack it. And as such, even if objects can pass through (as they obviously don't have to make a save) someone's weapons will not if he believes in the wall. It's the magic of illusions!
My thoughts exactly.
Also, regarding the defensive capacity of the invisible wall, I noticed that objects in the CRB don't have immunity to critical hits or precision damage (pg.273 in the Core Rulebook), so I think the reasoning posed earlier that the wall should be immune to crits/precision because it is an inanimate object is not correct. Heck, this wall is not even an object, it only exist in your mind after seeing someone mime it!
I'm not a number-cruncher, but it may be important for the balance of the game that this cantrip wall doesn't have the same immunities as other wall spells that require spending slots.