Heightened Hydraulic Push Clarifications


Rules Discussion


Quote:

Critical Success: The target takes 6d6 bludgeoning damage and is knocked back 10 feet.

Success: The target takes 3d6 bludgeoning damage and is knocked back 5 feet.
Heightened (+1): The damage increases by 2d6.

How exactly is the Heightened Hydraulic Push works when you roll a critical success?

TOS

Liberty's Edge

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At level 1 - it deals 3d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.

At level 2 - it deals 5d6 on a S: 8d6 on a CS.

At level 3 - it deals 7d6 on a S: 10d6 on a CS.

... and so on. At least that's how I interpret it since the damage dice is spelled out explicitly instead of simly stating that you double the number of normal damage dice it would deal which would be essentially required.


But it muste be a mistake? In all other cases you deal double damage on a critical hit.


Palas wrote:
But it muste be a mistake? In all other cases you deal double damage on a critical hit.

All attack roll spells that double their damage on a crit specifically call you for you to double their damage in their spell entry, like Ray of Frost, Produce Flame or Acid Arrow:

Ray of Frost wrote:


Critical Success The target takes double damage and takes a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success The target takes normal damage.
Produce Flame wrote:
On a success, you deal 1d4 fire damage plus your spellcasting ability modifier. On a critical success, the target takes double damage and 1d4 persistent fire damage.
Acid Arrow wrote:
On a hit, you deal 3d8 acid damage plus 1d6 persistent acid damage. On a critical hit, double the initial damage, but not the persistent damage.

Hydraulic Push is specifically written differently, with its critical success having a specified damage amount instead of telling you to double the damage. While I personally think that's due to writer error instead of any balance concerns, the current written version of it seems pretty clear.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems deliberate to me. Quite a few of the "double damage on CR" don't have nice rider effects like Hydraulic Push does.


Palas wrote:
But it muste be a mistake? In all other cases you deal double damage on a critical hit.

Not all other cases. Polar Ray, for instance, has no specific benefits at all on a critical success.


I am in agreement about how it heightens, but it certainly does seem...mm...less than great progression wise.

That said, it is technically possible to read it as:

At level 1 - it deals 3d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.
At level 2 - it deals 5d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.
At level 3 - it deals 7d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.

Because it doesn't say that the critical damage increases at all. I'm 100% sure that this isn't the intent, but is an interpretation that is grammatically valid.

If I were to change things (and leave Themetricsystem's interpretation) I'd change the heightening to read:

Quote:
The damage and damage on a critical increases by 2d6.

If I were to tweak things to be a little more impactful:

Quote:
The damage increases by 2d6 and the damage on a critical increases by 3d6.

Crit damage scales more slowly than a true double, but at least it scales.


Draco18s wrote:

I am in agreement about how it heightens, but it certainly does seem...mm...less than great progression wise.

That said, it is technically possible to read it as:

At level 1 - it deals 3d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.
At level 2 - it deals 5d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.
At level 3 - it deals 7d6 on a S: 6d6 on a CS.

Because it doesn't say that the critical damage increases at all. I'm 100% sure that this isn't the intent, but is an interpretation that is grammatically valid.

Well, yeah, but only in the same way it is technically possible to interpret the following as a gruesome act as opposed to a scene from a Disney film:

"I ate and then played with my puppy."

Draco18s wrote:

If I were to change things (and leave Themetricsystem's interpretation) I'd change the heightening to read:

Quote:
The damage and damage on a critical increases by 2d6.

Or, you could just leave it as-is because "damage" without qualifiers obviously applies to all damage, and it would be weird and awkward to call out damage from a critical success separately in this context.

Draco18s wrote:


If I were to tweak things to be a little more impactful:

Quote:
The damage increases by 2d6 and the damage on a critical increases by 3d6.
Crit damage scales more slowly than a true double, but at least it scales.

That would probably have been more appropriate, I agree. But either way you still get the extra 5 ft of forced movement out of a crit, which could make a big difference under the right circumstances.


Draco18s wrote:


Because it doesn't say that the critical damage increases at all.

Why would it need to? 'Critical damage' isn't a unique type of damage. The spell tells us that it does 3d6 or 6d6 damage and that when you heighten it you increase the damage by 2d6, with nothing to suggest the damage only gets applied to one of those states.

There's just no way to parse "the damage increases by 2d6" as "the damage increases by 2d6 but only sometimes" given the way the spell is written.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Quote:
The damage increases by 2d6 and the damage on a critical increases by 3d6.
That would probably have been more appropriate, I agree.

Phantasmal killer uses this language, interestingly enough.

Quote:

Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6 on a failure and

by 3d6 on a critical failure.

Anyway, thought I'd look around for some other comparable spells and...

Every other spell that uses the phrase "the damage increase" (as opposed to "the initial damage") either use a basic save (implies double damage) or has a crit-success entry that says double damage. All of the "initial damage" spells are referring to the immediate damage (which doubles) vs. persistent damage (which does not).

Except:

Hydraulic Push
Litany Against Wrath (which has the same "3d6" in each rider).
Polar Ray (which lacks a crit rider entirely)
Quivering Palm (failure/success delineation, as the crit-fail outcome just kills the target)
Vibrant Thorns (lacks either a saving throw or attack roll)


@Draco18s": yeah. One goal of the 2nd rules was to make the game more intuitive. So it should be double damage on a crit.

RAW it is quite clear, but it breaks with the general rules, so i think it must be a mistake.

Som ask your GM of his opinion.

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