As I tend to do when invested in a long campaign, my character is deviating from their initial character concept and just looking to have fun with their potential. As of right now, the character is a hodge-pog of classes that just seem to work out... The original intent was to use White-haired witch to build a witch that is capable of some self-defense in close quarters combat. It has evolved quite drastically since then, as I decided to take few rogue levels to get trapfinding, evasion and regain access to hexes (that don't rely on witch level).
Here is the character currently (some retraining):
Witch (White-Haired) 4 [Infernal Contract: Strength]
Brawler (Strangler) 2
Unchained Rogue (Sylvan Trickster) 2
VMC Magus
Feats:
1) Dirty Fighting
1B) Extra Hex (Protective Luck)
3) Arcane Pool +1 [VMC Magus]
3B) Weapon Finesse [Rogue Finesse Training]
5) Improved Grapple
7) Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery: Grapple) [VMC Magus]
7B) Greater Grapple [Brawler Bonus]
Hexes:
Misfortune [Infernal Contract]
Protective Luck [Extra Hex]
Cackle [Rogue Talent: Fey Trick]
With a careful selection of items, the character is swinging around a +27 to grapple checks statically (not accounting for flanking, spell buffs, or other situational bonuses which could push it to the mid-30's). They are quite capable of moving around the battlefield due to acrobatics, carefully chosen speed buffing spells, and is quite able to make use of any of them consumable items that we pick up on our adventure. Wand of Summon Monster III has been quite useful, as has the Wand of Magic Missile (CL 9) they purchased in lieu of having to buy a pricey weapon.
The two paths I am considering right now are to just keep continuing with White-Haired Witch so that my patron spells keep ramping up, my familiar (protector)abilities grow stronger, and I get access to rogue talents. Or to shift gears and pick up Arcane Trickster, to progress my sneak attack damage (which will apply nearly always in a grapple when I constrict the enemy; twice a round with greater grappler, or three times with Rapid Grappler).
Another option I considered was just to focus on Rogue levels, to get more hexes, greater hexes, and sneak attack. But the lure of spellcasting turned me away from it pretty quick.
To sum up the character's role in the group is fairly simple. They are in the traditional 'Rogue' niche, with a few bells and whistles. They switch focus round by round based on what is needed at the moment, and use their spells to get where ever they are needed as quickly as possible.
Note: This is a home game, so some rulings from the FAQ may or may not be acknowledged (such as a VMC class not having an effective level for certain things). Let's not get bogged down in arguing about that.
If you are looking for any sort of optimization, Arcane Trickster is probably not the answer... ever.
Arcane Trickster is something that may fit this build, since it is purely a flavor choice. If you just want to mess around with a few new/fun abilities... Arcane Trickster can work.
Arcane Trickster continues Sneak Attack, but drops to 1/2 BAB, which will drop your CMB. It continues spellcasting at full progression, but that is only as useful as you make it... half your levels aren't in spellcasting classes, so this may be an effort to catch up?
Arcane Trickster can be fun, but it is seldom optimal. I don't see a lot of synergy with your current build, though.
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Nah, if I wanted optimization, I could handle that easily. I am just looking for an outside perspective of some fun options. I'm fairly experienced at designing characters but I've found that the more minds that are involved, the more options I never considered appear.
If I continue Witch levels, my CMB is going to stagnant either way. My grapple CMB won't, since it is based on my level (thanks to magus arcana), so that is not something I am worried about. As it is right now, I'll have the potential (without investing a single bit of additional resources) to grapple a dragon or balor reliably, and PIN them on the second round if they don't try to break free immediately. And that's within a few more levels, let alone the CR20 of the monster. Grappling is my trump card. I only use it when I need to save someone's life or defend myself. Freedom of movement is the only issue I'm going to have to deal with.
Do it. It can be fun, just seldom optimal.
I used Arcane Trickster to spice up a necromancer based on Eldritch Scoundrel UnRogue... even though just staying in rogue probably would have been more "optimal". I just wanted some extra flavor in the build, figured life is too short it spend too much time in rogue.
On the other hand, Arcane Trickster was the optimal choice for the Sandman Bard VMC Rogue... she was all about sneaky spells, played like a Sorcerer but had a +12 BAB, 11D6 Sneak Attack, and some Bard stuffs. Spellsong and Standard Caster's Tattooes really sealed the deal.
Your CMD is probably pretty poor, I'm curious how you avoid the problem of having your grapple reversed or escaped easily.
That said, increasing your sneak attack doesn't do much for your desire to fill the party's needs as they come. Something like Stargazer would boost your hexes and spell casting which should give you a better flexible range than a few extra d6. You'd also have more skill points available, better hp, your cmd wouldn't suffer as much, and so on. Regardless of the method chosen, I'd focus on improving spells and hexes.
ErichAD wrote: Your CMD is probably pretty poor, I'm curious how you avoid the problem of having your grapple reversed or escaped easily. To optimize your Grappling Character, I would take2 levels in Cavalier and join the Order of the Penitent. The Level 2 Order Ability of the OotP is DEVASTATING! Expert Captor lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned--Opponent, and you don't take that -10 you normally do. When your victims are Tied Up, the DC to escape is 20+CMB and not CMD. For your character with a +27, that means your captives will need to roll a 47 to escape, and that's hard to do on a 20-sided die.
You already have Greater Grapple, so you would Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, then just Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action using Greater Grapple. That will mean you will be taking out your opponents in 1 round: Grappled and Tied Up, Done and Dusted. There is a downside. When you are in the OotP, you can't kill anybody. You always have to take people alive.
You have White Hair: you should take Great Cleave so you can attack and Grapple every adjacent opponent simultaneously. Great Cleaving is a Standard Action, so you will still have your Move Action to Tie Up one of your victims. That probably means you should take Rapid Grappler after taking Cleave and before taking Great Cleave so you can use your Swift Action to Tie Up a 2nd victim. You should take Broken Wing Gambit or Snake Fang so that as your victims try to escape, you can Grapple and Tie them Up as Attacks of Opportunity.
For Grappling, I consider levels of Alchemist essential. You can be a Vivisectionist and continue building your Sneak Attack Damage. The Discoveries you want are Tumor Familiar: +2 on your Grapple Checks, and Tentacle: Grab, which gives you another +4. Honestly, I would have gone with Alchemist instead of Magus. I'd say that Vivisectionist is my preference for playing a magic thief.
So you're saying your character is really good at being Sneaky: that's perfect. You infiltrate the battlefield, pick the best spot, then you just completely neutralize the most powerful opponent in a single round.
VoodistMonk wrote: If you are looking for any sort of optimization, Arcane Trickster is probably not the answer... ever. When I played an Arcane Trickster, the thing I found he was really good at was infiltration. The Change Self Spell gives you a +10 on Disguise Checks, and the Mask of the Stony Demeanor gives you a +10 on all Bluff Checks to lie. That generally means you can appear to be anyone, and everyone believes every lie you tell, especially when you combine that with Lots of Skill Points, Class Skills, and some choice Rogue Talents such as Coax Information, Honeyed Words, and Charmer.
You have Weapon Finesse. Are you taking Agile Maneuvers?
What is your Attack Bonus like with your White Hair? Do you Attack with your Hair, Initiate a Grapple as a Free Action then use Greater Grapple as a Move Action to Pin, or do you just Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action then Pin as a Move Action?
My instinct is that your next 2 levels should be in Cavalier with the Constable Archetype and Order of the Penitent, of course. I think your Bonus Teamwork Feat should be Broken Wing Gambit, and your Level 9 Feat should be Combat Reflexes. Then you will start getting Attacks of Opportunity just for people attacking you, and you will start Grappling them as Free Actions.
I guess your next 4 levels or so should be in Alchemist with the Vivisectionist Archtype, and your Alchemal Discoveries should be King Crab Tumor Familiar, Tentacle, and Infusion, and not necessarily in that order. There are 2 level 2 Extracts you should take a long look at. Alchemal Allocation lets you use a Potion without consuming it. That means that basically any spell that can be made into a potion in any class levels 1-3 are now in your spellbook: look at you! The other is Touch Injection. My idea of it is that the round before you enter melee with the Balor Demon, you cast True Strike on yourself, and you give your Familiar an Infusion of True Strike. So then the party Wizard Dimdoors you to the Balor Demon, you Initiate a Grapple with a +47 on your Grapple Mod because now you have True Strike. Your Familiar hits you with Touch Injection as a Readied Action, then you Tie Up the Balor Demon, again with a +47 with True Strike as a Move Action. It might be that your next Feats should be Extra Discovery to get that combination of Infusion, Familiar, and Tentacle faster, but I really like the idea of your taking Great Cleave so you can Grapple multiple opponents simultaneously.
In other words, I think you should develop as a Grappler the rest of the way, and pursue being a magic thief with levels in Vivisectionist Alchemist.
ErichAD wrote: Your CMD is probably pretty poor, I'm curious how you avoid the problem of having your grapple reversed or escaped easily. Currently, the character's CMD against grapple is 30. If the enemies want to spend their action attempting to escape, I am perfectly fine with that. If they don't (or they fail), they've just screwed themselves over because I'm likely to pin them in the next turn.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: You have Weapon Finesse. Are you taking Agile Maneuvers? I did not plan to. I exclusively use my Hair to grapple, so it's CMB is already based on Intelligence. Dexterity and Intelligence on this character is pretty much equal.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: What is your Attack Bonus like with your White Hair? Do you Attack with your Hair, Initiate a Grapple as a Free Action then use Greater Grapple as a Move Action to Pin, or do you just Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action then Pin as a Move Action? The Hair slam attack is currently at +12 (again, no situational or temporary bonuses included). I only use the Hair (Slam) attack when I can get into a flanking position and have buffs up, as it becomes a reliable attack option. Normally, I just initiate a grapple directly. Greater grapple only works when you BEGIN the round grappling. You don't get to use it in the same round you initiate one.
I may pick up Throat slicer as a feat. Pinning the enemy in the second round and then using my standard action to coup-de-grace them with a x4 crit weapon sounds great, but it also seems too good.
I like Throat Slicer better than Order of the Penitent, personally.
Order of the Penitent comes with SO MUCH baggage. It's like being a Paladin. Which means your party is now playing with this extra baggage.
Like, you can tie people up with the quickness... cool story, bro. Now let's stick a spear in them and move on. Wait, what do you mean we can't kill them? We are 19 days from the nearest settlement with established law enforcement. We have been rationing our food, and barely have enough water for our horses... nor do we have extra horses for all these people you just tied up.
And, no GM is going to, or should, allow you to keep your Order if you turn a blind eye to your party killing the people you capture.
It's a trap.
DeathlessOne wrote: Greater grapple only works when you BEGIN the round grappling. You don't get to use it in the same round you initiate one. That must be a house rule.
Grappling wrote: Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions... Move... Damage... Pin... Tie Up... Greater Grapple wrote: This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent) If your GM has already ruled on this, that's fine. My advice is based on what the rules say. The rules say that once you have Initiated a Grapple, Grapple checks you make after that can be used to Move, Damage, Pin, or Tie Up an Opponent. Normally, you only get 1 Grapple Check/Round because normally a Grapple Check is a Standard Action. But Greater Grapple lets you make a Grapple Check as a Move Action, and it specifically states that you can make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent.
Like I said, if your GM has houseruled on this, okay, I guess. But there are no official, published rules that say that you can't make 2 Grapple Checks/round when you have a Feat that says you can.
VoodistMonk wrote: I like Throat Slicer better than Order of the Penitent, personally.
Order of the Penitent comes with SO MUCH baggage. It's like being a Paladin. Which means your party is now playing with this extra baggage.
Like, you can tie people up with the quickness... cool story, bro. Now let's stick a spear in them and move on. Wait, what do you mean we can't kill them? We are 19 days from the nearest settlement with established law enforcement. We have been rationing our food, and barely have enough water for our horses... nor do we have extra horses for all these people you just tied up.
And, no GM is going to, or should, allow you to keep your Order if you turn a blind eye to your party killing the people you capture.
It's a trap.
That's fair. Playing a PC who tries to never kill anyone is roleplaying challenge. I didn't find to to be all that onerous, personally.
Although the scenario you are describing is a little extreme and a little artificial. You are describing a party that is running out of provisions and is seems to be forced to either kill all the fallen foes or take them prisoner. Why not just leave them tied up and go on your way? Are you now supposing we were sent out to bring in all these--what, bandits?--dead or alive, and because I'm with you it just HAS to be alive? Now that's starting to sound like good roleplaying.
The onerous part was when the battle was over, I was insisting that we bandage and stabilize everybody. That meant I had to carry around extra medical supplies.
Blegh, Order of the penitent is harsh. Equipment trick:rope is a better method I think. Hogtie lets you bind grappled but not pinned targets at a -5, and you can still kill them afterward.
Whitehaired witch is a pretty good chassis for a bushwhack+throat slicer build. Still, while it's easier for them to get someone to be both flat-footed and unaware of them than normal, it's not as reliable as a hogtie throat slice.
Personally, I like throat slicer for animal companions more than players, it's easy to get your target pinned in one turn and get your companion to walk up and off them. Taking a level of eldritch knight and giving throat slicer to your familiar could be funny too.
There's also the evangelist of Mazmezz option as well. If you're keen on worshiping an evil spider lady, and don't mind turning into a spider person, being large and getting a +4 grapple bonus aren't bad.
I think my advice to DeathlessOne is the same even in light of his GM's house rule. He has developed his character as a Grappler to a large extent with Greater Grapple and a full time Grapple Mod of +27 at level 7, so I think it would make his character very much more powerful to gain Expert Captor and be able to Tie Up opponents in 2 Grapple Checks.
VoodistMonk thinks the Order of the Penitent's prohibition on killing people might be too much to deal with, and while I didn't with my own character, I understand how that might be the case for some players. In that case, there is another Feat that might serve. Equipment Trick Rope is a Combat Feat that allows you to Tie Up an Opponent you are Grappling and you take a -5 instead of that -10, and you can do other cool rope-related things. And you don't to follow any onerous Cavalier Order Edicts.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: DeathlessOne wrote: Greater grapple only works when you BEGIN the round grappling. You don't get to use it in the same round you initiate one. That must be a house rule. It's not a house rule.
Quote: Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. Starting a grapple, either with the hair grab attack or a normal maneuver check, is still a standard action. Also, you only maintain a grapple at the beginning of a turn.
VoodistMonk wrote: Order of the Penitent comes with SO MUCH baggage. It's like being a Paladin. Which means your party is now playing with this extra baggage. Yeah, that isn't really an option for the character either. He has made an Infernal pact with his patron, and while he does go out of his way to do good things to balance things out, he tends to settle around the lukewarm end of the alignment pool. There is a paladin in the group that helps keep him on the straight and narrow.
I wonder how amused the character's infernal patron would be with his oath to the order of the penitent. I guess it could be more convenient if your character believed that the appropriate local authority was in hell, but I don't think that's quite in line with the expectations of the order.
I played a character with a similar inclination, though not an enforced one, in a temple of elemental evil game. We filled Hommlet with prisoners before even getting to the temple, and Nulb had nowhere to put prisoners nor anyone to watch them, and had no ruling authority.
The game was humorous, of course, we got to fight the same people over and over as they released each other from prison cells and bindings, and so on. Eventually Hommlet decided they couldn't hold prisoners for crimes committed on lands that didn't belong to them and against people that weren't theirs. The DM said that he thought maybe he'd permitted too many prisoners already since the town is probably only about 300 people and we'd brought about 30 from the moat house. I think we made that 30 mile walk from the Temple to Hommlet a couple times with a train of prisoners on foot. Needless to say, it took awhile.
I would allow Order of the Penitent shenanigans in a game where the party IS the authority or acting directly for the authority. However, I absolutely would not allow someone with the Order of the Penitent to expertly bind enemies and leave them to thirst to death or be eaten by beasts.
Being a literal expert at tying people up, and leaving them bound is a death sentence. Same exact thing as allowing your team to stick a spear in them.
Everyone wants the benefits of the Order, and then tries to work around the edicts of said Order. Not on my watch...
DeathlessOne wrote: It's not a house rule. Yes it is. It's not a real rule, not a real, official rule that was ever written down and published for PF1.
DeathlessOne wrote: Starting a grapple, either with the hair grab attack or a normal maneuver check, is still a standard action. That is false. The normal Combat Maneuver Check does take a Standard Action, as you say, but the Combat Maneuver Check that comes off the Grab Ability is a Free Action.
Grab wrote: If the creature hits with the indicated attack, it deals the normal amount of damage and tries to start a grapple as a free action Witches' White Hair does not come with the Grab Ability, but they can Grapple as a Free Action, too.
White Haired Witch wrote: whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action Notice the wording, here. Grab only allows you to Initiate a Grapple in this way. White Hair lets you make any kind of attempt to Grapple, not just a Check to Intitiate.
DeathlessOne wrote: you only maintain a grapple at the beginning of a turn. Show me where the rules say that, and you will convince me.
You would also end this argument if you wrote: Well, I know I'll never convince you, but that doesn't matter. That's the way my GM plays it, so that's the way I play it, too. Then
I would have wrote: Fair enough.
Greater grapple uses the term "grapple checks", which permits multiple maintains, but an "attempt to grapple" is the phrase used with initiating a grapple. I don't see anything indicating that the two are interchangeable.
But there's also nothing saying whether or not you can maintain a grapple before you must maintain a grapple. Greater grapple implies that you can maintain a grapple that doesn't need it though, so I'm inclined to think you can maintain a grapple whenever you have the actions to do so.
So, my main point is that I recommend the OP develop his Grappling the rest of the way by taking either Expert Captor or Equipment Trick: Rope. The former is more powerful for Grappling, but puts possibly onerous roleplaying restrictions on the character. The latter is not as powerful, but also has other utilities and combat applications. And I maintain advice even if the OP's GM interprets the Grappling as described by the OP and not the rules as written. Whichever interpretation is being used, the OP considers Grappling to be a powerful tactic, uses it as such, and anyway he has developed this in his character extensively, and it makes sense to continue building on it.
ErichAD wrote: Greater grapple uses the term "grapple checks", which permits multiple maintains, but an "attempt to grapple" is the phrase used with initiating a grapple. No, I don't think "attempt" is a game term that specifically means "Initiate." Attempt is used as a blanket term to refer to any Combat Maneuver Check.
Combat Maneuvers wrote: During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Also,
Combat Maneuvers wrote: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. And this, definitively,
Combat Maneuvers wrote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. "Attempt" is a word used to describe any and all types of Combat Maneuver checks.
ErichAD wrote: I don't see anything indicating that the two are interchangeable. I am linking to where where the rules I am quoting right here.
ErichAD wrote: But there's also nothing saying whether or not you can maintain a grapple before you must maintain a grapple. Greater grapple implies that you can maintain a grapple that doesn't need it though, so I'm inclined to think you can maintain a grapple whenever you have the actions to do so. So I think we agree on that, although I think Greater Grapple says it directly more than it implies it. It states "this Feat lets you make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent."
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
That is false. The normal Combat Maneuver Check does take a Standard Action, as you say, but the Combat Maneuver Check that comes off the Grab Ability is a Free Action.
I am sorry but unless you can show me how it is possible for the White-Haired witch to initiate a grapple without using a standard action in the attempt leading up to doing so, I am going to have to disagree with you.
White Haired Witch wrote: ... In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, ... As far as I can tell, you aren't going to be able to pull off two grapple attempts until the next round after you first initiate them. As I said above, if you can show me how, I am willing to listen. One way or another, you are using a standard attack to hit with the hair (and then getting a grapple check for free) or using a standard action to attempt the grapple normally.
Quote: Show me where the rules say that, and you will convince me. Well, sure.
Grapple wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. Maintaining a grapple is a standard action. Most creatures only get one of those each round, unless specific abilities say otherwise.
DeathlessOne wrote: As far as I can tell, you aren't going to be able to pull off two grapple attempts until the next round after you first initiate them. As I said above, if you can show me how, I am willing to listen. I can definitely show you ways of making more than 1 Grapple Check in a Round, and there is no rule that states that you are only allowed to make 1 check/round until the round after a Grapple has been established. Unless of course, you can show me a rule that does say that.
You wrote: Well, sure. Grapple wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. So, fine, if your hold is not broken in the round where you Initiated a Grapple, and if you do not release it as a Free Action, and if you wish to Maintain it, you need to make another check. In other words, a successful grapple check has a duration of 1 round, even if it doesn't get broken or released.
DeathlessOne wrote: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action. That is what the general rules say. But that is not true for your character. Your character has Greater Grapple, and so for your character, maintaining the Grapple only takes a Move Action.
DeathlessOne wrote: Most creatures only get one of those[Standard Actions] each round, unless specific abilities say otherwise. Also true. I am not contending that it is possible for a character to get more than 1 Standard Action in a Round. And it is fair to say that generally, a Grapple Check takes a Standard Action, and you only get 1 of those/round.
What I am stating that it is possible make a Grapple Check with actions other than Standard Actions, and if you have one of those special abilities that allow you to make a Grapple Check with one of those other Actions, then it is possible for you to make more than 1 check/round.
Your character, for instance, has the Greater Grapple Feat. Greater Grapple allows you to make a Grapple Check as a Move Action.
Greater Grapple wrote: Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. It doesn't say "The round after you have grappled a creature." It just says "Once you have grappled a creature."
So, you take your Standard Action to Initiate a Grapple, or you make a Standard Action Hair Attack, then make a Free Action Grapple. At this point you have Grappled the creature. Greater Grapple states that your maintain-roll can now be made as a Move Action. If you have your Move Action left, there is no reason why you can't make another Grapple Check. In fact, Greater Grapple specifically states that it allows you to make 2.
Greater Grapple wrote: This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round And the Grappling rules clearly state that once you have your opponent Grappled, and in this case you would, "a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).... Move... Damage... Pin...Tie Up..." only in your case it doesn't cost a Standard Action: it only costs a Move Action, and your Greater Grapple Feat specifically lets you make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent.
What rule says you cannot make a Maintain Check on the same round as you made your Intitiate Check?
Also, bear in mind that there are other ways of accomplishing a similar effect.
DeathlessOne wrote: I am sorry but unless you can show me how it is possible for the White-Haired witch to initiate a grapple without using a standard action in the attempt leading up to doing so, I am going to have to disagree with you. Fair enough: I'm not saying that no Standard Action was taken. All I'm saying is that the Grapple Check itself in this case is made as a Free Action.
Let's say you follow my advice and grow a Tentacle. You Full Attack with your Tentacle and Hair. You hit with your Tentacle which has Grab, and that lets you start a Grapple as a Free Action. So, now you hit with your Hair. Now you get another Grapple Check as another Free Action with your Hair, and you can go for the Pin (I'm not recommending you do this. This Attack is weak, I'm just using this as a rules example.). So, let's say you then dip a level in Monk with the Maneuver Master Archetype. That gives you Flurry of Maneuvers, which allows you to add an extra Combat Maneuver as part of your Full Attack, even one that normally has to be done as a Standard Action, such as a Grapple. Now your character hits with the Tentacle, hits with the 'Hair, and scores 2 successful Grapple checks. Then you can use Flurry of Maneuvers to make a 3rd Check. What is supposed to happen with all those checks? The rules say that after the first check each one of those checks are supposed to let you Move, Damage, or Pin your opponent or Tie them up if they are already Pinned.
Do the General Grappling rules actually say you are not allowed to use the White Hair Grapple if you have already used Grab? Do the general Grappling rules really say you are not allowed to use Flurry of Maneuvers if you have already used Grab? Where do the rules actually say that?
Let's look at something simpler: the Rapid Grappler Feat. The Rapid Grappler Feat says that after you have used Greater Grapple, you get to make another Grapple Check as a Swift Action. You get 1 Standard Action, 1 Move Action, and 1 Swift Action every round: that's true for just about everybody. All I'm saying here is that everyone can make 1 Grapple Check/round as a Standard Action. And when you have Greater Grapple, you get to use your Move action to another Grapple Check: Greater Grapple literally says that, and if you have Rapid Grappler, you get to use your Swift Action to make another Grapple Check: Rapid Grappler literally says that! And the Grappling rules do say that after your first successful check, each new successful check lets you Move, Damage, or Pin a Grappled Opponent or Move, Damage, or Tie Up a Pinned opponent. That's literally what the rules say.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Fair enough: I'm not saying that no Standard Action was taken. All I'm saying is that the Grapple Check itself in this case is made as a Free Action. Alright, I see where the confusion originated. We don't actually disagree with how the grappling is being handled. My statement about greater grappling only being useful the round after a grapple is initiated was not intended to be a universal statement about how grappling works all the time, for all instances. Only for this particular character, at this particular time, with this particular skill set. Any normal character without the ability to initiate grapples as a free action would pretty much have to operate under the statement I made about grappling.
To be more specific, I don't assume my character is going to be within striking distance of an enemy at the beginning of their turn, or that I am going to have a move action left over to use for a second grapple check. As a Witch ... hit points are at a premium and my AC isn't the best (this is intentional, for now). I'd rather use my move action to Cackle (and keep up Protective Luck/Misfortune) than use it to attempt another grapple check. In addition, being able to maintain a grapple as a move action (once I've already got them), frees me up to continue to use my standard actions for spells, hexes, or other nifty things that keep my group alive and well.
When the opportunity presents itself to 'hulk smash puny god' the enemies with my hair because there isn't anything else I want/need to do that round, I will definitely take it. I just don't want to exclusively keep building the character around it. I've run the math and based on what I've done so far, focusing farther in grappling is just going to be complete and total overkill.
DeathlessOne wrote: My statement about greater grappling only being useful the round after a grapple is initiated was not intended to be a universal statement about how grappling works all the time, for all instances. Only for this particular character, at this particular time, with this particular skill set. You were saying you normally expend your Move Action to Move up to your opponent, then you use your Standard Action to Initiate a Grapple.
I was suggesting you might use your stealthy skills to sneak up on your opponent and Grapple and Tie them Up all in the next round, or hitch a ride on the party Wizard DimDooring you on top of your opponent. Gaining the ability to do that would only require a 2 level dip in Cavalier or 1 more Feat. Meanwhile, you are thinking of taking levels in a class for being some kind of magic thief like Arcane Trickster. I was just suggesting Vivisectionist Alchemist, which gives you some lovely Arcane Abilities and increases your SA Damage at the same time, and increases your Grapple Mod.
DeathlessOne wrote: focusing farther in grappling is just going to be complete and total overkill. Yeaaaah... *WEG*
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