Sell Me a Staff v2

[Calybos1]

So in first edition Pathfinder, our group tried to figure out why a magic staff was so massively expensive. It is, essentially, a drastically lower-capacity wand that you can (very, very gradually) recharge at the rate of one charge/day, and only by robbing yourself of one of your own spell slots. Sure, it's rechargeable--but is going green really worth that much of an upcharge, compared to just buying a scroll for the same result (one use, fixed caster level)?

Eventually we decided it was an easy way to transfer massive amounts of wealth around Golarion's screwy economy; supposedly 'brilliant' wizards were shelling out huge quantities of gold for the sheer social status of carrying around a big useless chunk of wood.

(break)

But no matter! Now we're looking at Second Edition, and things seem a bit brighter. A staff is a still a bigger, heavier wand with much lower capacity (no, strike that, wands only have one charge now). And a staff still gets used up in two or three casts... but now you get its meager charges for FREE at the start of each day, based on your highest available spell level. Okay, not so bad. Certainly it's still not worth a dump truck full of money, but that's somewhat useful.

And what's this? Prepared casters can even boost that number of charges by sacrificing one of their daily spells. An optional addition to the arsenal on any given day. Seems nice, and perfectly fair. Then we come to spontane--

Uhh, what? What the flying flumph is this? Spontaneous casters can... cast one of their spells using their spell slots, and choose to expend a charge from the staff at the same time. To no apparent effect. Because they get the exact same-level spell and spell effect, just as if they'd cast it without the staff.

So how is this helpful? You're still spending your spell slot, and you're getting nothing in return but lost charges from a staff that hasn't aided you. Why don't we run the AC and the heater with the windows down while we're at it? Please tell me they're giving away magic staves for free in cereal boxes now.....

[Salamileg]

Staves for spontaneous casters basically give a few free casts per day but also allow them to expand their spell repertoire a bit with what's in the staff.

[Cordell Kintner]

Staffs for prepared casters: Spell battery, and a way to get a ton of True Strike spells per day.

Staffs for Spontaneous Casters: More spells in their spell Repertoire

Basically they can have a spell they don't know in the staff, and cast it as if they knew it, but only up to the max of their highest level spell slot per day.

[Ravingdork]

You don't need to spend your spell slots Calybos1. That's just an additional option.

Even if you do choose to spend your spell slots, it's still great for sponcasts as it can greatly expand your spell repertoir's options.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

See I see staves as being their most useful when collapsing higher level spells into lots of smaller casts of spells.

If you could freely build staves out of the best spells rather than thematically linked spells it is a really big boost to casters.

[Nik Gervae]

Calybos1 wrote:

Uhh, what? What the flying flumph is this? Spontaneous casters can... cast one of their spells using their spell slots, and choose to expend a charge from the staff at the same time. To no apparent effect. Because they get the exact same-level spell and spell effect, just as if they'd cast it without the staff.

So how is this helpful? You're still spending your spell slot, and you're getting nothing in return but lost charges from a staff that hasn't aided you. Why don't we run the AC and the heater with the windows down while we're at it? Please tell...

You're missing the part where you can cast any spell in the staff, regardless of level, by spending your spell slot of that level, but only one charge from the staff, rather than charges equal to the level of the spell.

So, a prepared caster using a staff with, say, fireball and three charges, could cast fireball from that staff once. Period.. A spontaneous caster could cast fireball up to three times, so long as they have the third-level spell slots. I'd guess thatspontaneous casters will want staves containing mostly spells that aren't in their repertoire, to expand that repertoire as much as possible.

[AvalonRellen]

Nik Gervae wrote:

Calybos1 wrote:

Uhh, what? What the flying flumph is this? Spontaneous casters can... cast one of their spells using their spell slots, and choose to expend a charge from the staff at the same time. To no apparent effect. Because they get the exact same-level spell and spell effect, just as if they'd cast it without the staff.

So how is this helpful? You're still spending your spell slot, and you're getting nothing in return but lost charges from a staff that hasn't aided you. Why don't we run the AC and the heater with the windows down while we're at it? Please tell...

You're missing the part where you can cast any spell in the staff, regardless of level, by spending your spell slot of that level, but only one charge from the staff, rather than charges equal to the level of the spell.

So, a prepared caster using a staff with, say, fireball and three charges, could cast fireball from that staff once. Period.. A spontaneous caster could cast fireball up to three times, so long as they have the third-level spell slots. I'd guess thatspontaneous casters will want staves containing mostly spells that aren't in their repertoire, to expand that repertoire as much as possible.

I realize you are directing this towards somebody else, but this just made staves *click* and blew my mind. Wow the right stave on a Spon cater is amazing. That is a huge difference!

[Kyrone]

Pretty much.

For prepared casters is a way to have some few "spontaneous spells" during the day, because you choose the spell in the spot rather than at the start of the day.

For spontaneous casters is a way to increase spell repertoire, so you per example pick a staff of Illusion and now you have a bunch of Illusion spells. Having multiple staves is kinda interesting so you can pseudo "prepare" spells for the day.

[WatersLethe]

Yeah, that about covers it, so I just want to say I freaking love staves in this edition.

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

Agreed!

[Ravingdork]

WatersLethe wrote:

Yeah, that about covers it, so I just want to say I freaking love staves in this edition.

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

Agreed!

Athreed!

[Salamileg]

I will say, I really like staves on paper, but am less fond of them in practice because of how many of the ones that currently exist have spells that really need to be heightened to be really effective (damage spells, incapacitation spells, summoning, etc.)

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

That, to me, resembles a dicrepency between what they do and what you want them to do.

[breithauptclan]

Salamileg wrote:

I will say, I really like staves on paper, but am less fond of them in practice because of how many of the ones that currently exist have spells that really need to be heightened to be really effective (damage spells, incapacitation spells, summoning, etc.)

That is why I am looking for good rules for a 'craft your own staff' rules similar to the rules for crafting scrolls and wands. Build a staff to your liking - you just have to find someone who can cast the needed spells for you if you don't already cast them yourself.

[Cordell Kintner]

breithauptclan wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

I will say, I really like staves on paper, but am less fond of them in practice because of how many of the ones that currently exist have spells that really need to be heightened to be really effective (damage spells, incapacitation spells, summoning, etc.)

That is why I am looking for good rules for a 'craft your own staff' rules similar to the rules for crafting scrolls and wands. Build a staff to your liking - you just have to find someone who can cast the needed spells for you if you don't already cast them yourself.

Staff Nexus Wizard is the closest we have to that right now. You build a staff in the book but can add any spells you want into them.