I've been grinding my way through the ruleset lately, getting ready for eventually playing a game in P2E. I hit a weird bit of muddiness related to the Swashbuckler that I want to double-check before I make any final decisions for myself.
Opportune Riposte (which I keep trying to write as "Opportune Parry and Riposte because 1st Edition) can generate a strike action as a reaction on the opponent's turn. I've recently wondered if it was subject to the Multiple Attack Penalty and hit something that has confused me slightly. Opportune Riposte does not talk about the MAP in its own entry, but the most comparable effect being Attack of Opportunity does have a specific clause in the entry for dealing with the off-turn attack. Based on that, my first thought was that Riposte would be subject to MAP. HOWEVER - the MAP entry itself states that "The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don’t have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else’s turn." Based on that line, I think I should assume that the Riposte does not interact with Multiple Attack Penalty, regardless of the reminder text in AoO.
Is my reading correct that MAP does not apply to the Riposte? Should there be a reminder/clarification in the Riposte entry similar to what AoO gets, or is the MAP entry clear enough?
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Is my reading correct that MAP does not apply to the Riposte? Should there be a reminder/clarification in the Riposte entry similar to what AoO gets, or is the MAP entry clear enough?
MAP doesn't apply to Riposte unless you Riposte during your turn (in response from an AoO, for example).
Thank you for the replies; I know I've run into "because included here, implied excluded elsewhere" arguments before and I wanted to be sure I was referencing the right place!
The only example that comes immediately to mind of a reaction that does suffer MAP when it takes place outside of your turn is using a Readied action.
What Attack of Opportunity having specific text about not interacting with MAP means is that even if AoO occurs during your own turn (like if your enemy moves as a reaction), it still does not suffer MAP, or contribute to it. Out of turn, the special rule has no effect.
One thing to note is if you have the ability to make multiple strikes-as-reaction on the same turn (limited to fighters and swashbucklers AFAIK), then they would take MAP.
One thing to note is if you have the ability to make multiple strikes-as-reaction on the same turn (limited to fighters and swashbucklers AFAIK), then they would take MAP.
Yes eventually they can have the ability to react twice in anothers turn.
The rules as written (quoted earlier) seem to contradict themselves a bit here.
I assume you have to go with it not applying, because it is specifically mentioned.
One thing to note is if you have the ability to make multiple strikes-as-reaction on the same turn (limited to fighters and swashbucklers AFAIK), then they would take MAP.
Where do you get this reading?
Everything I see seems to indicate that reaction attacks never take MAP, no matter how many you take.
Multiple Attack Penalty
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
I expect that reading came from reading the 1st bolded section, and forgetting about the second. Regardless, it is incorrect. Reaction attacks only interact with MAP when they occur during your own turn, or when there is a more specific rule (as with readied actions).
I expect that reading came from reading the 1st bolded section, and forgetting about the second. Regardless, it is incorrect. Reaction attacks only interact with MAP when they occur during your own turn, or when there is a more specific rule (as with readied actions).Multiple Attack Penalty
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
Yes its a pity the rules where written in such a way that they modify previous statements like that. The second statement is a helpful example and was not really needed from a game play point of view, but it does makes a difference in this particular case.