yes they should stack as they aren't boosting the same stat, save, etc...so like Rage and Battle Cry stack as you've mentioned because one is boosting a stat (that just happens to figure into an attack bonus) and the other is boosting attack by itself. Same with inspire courage, etc.
Unfortunately none of the saving throw bonuses stack due to being the same kind of bonus only applies situationally.
(In general, I would likely allow them to stack, or at least that’s my preference, but from the best of my understanding they would not.)
While I have long been of the opinion that morale bonus to attack and morale bonus to strength would stack with each other, I’m not sure they do, or at least, I don’t know that Paizo interpreted them as stacking, because they also don’t interpret two different types of bonus stacking if they come from the “same source” even if provided by different abilities.
The Ur-example of this is the refusal to allow two different features to tap into Charisma for saving throws (say, a paladin or antipaladin’s abilities and a nymph’s), by arguing that both tap into the “same source” (that “source” being Charisma) and thus they don’t stack.
While source =/= bonus type, I could see a very similar set of arguments being made insomuch as they are both a “morale” bonus that applies to attack rolls, limiting you to taking the best of them.
That said, the best answer is to do what you feel makes your table work best as a GM (with the potential to revise if it isn’t working a intended) and to discuss it with your GM if you’re a player.
As a base impulse, I would let them stack, though.
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While I have long been of the opinion that morale bonus to attack and morale bonus to strength would stack with each other,
They do stack. Just like an enhancement bonus to Dexterity stacks with your enhancement bonus to AC, or an enhancement bonus to Strength stacks with your enhancement bonus to Attack.
I’m not sure they do, or at least, I don’t know that Paizo interpreted them as stacking, because they also don’t interpret two different types of bonus stacking if they come from the “same source” even if provided by different abilities.
That doesn't sound right at all. You can apply the same ability modifier several times to an attribute, as long as the bonus type is different.
Why a paladin's Divine Grace and a Nymph's Unearthly Grace doesn't stack is because you add the same bonus type twice. And that bonus type is named untyped (yes that is an actual bonus type). That's the same reason why Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall doesn't allow you to add your Dexterity twice to trip attempts.
But you can stack a Scaled Fist's untyped Charisma bonus to AC with a paladin's Smite, which grants you a Deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma. If you also had Celestial Obedience (Arshea) you could add an Armor bonus equal to your charisma to your AC. Which means you add it three times, but all are different bonus types. Untyped, Deflection, and Armor.
I know.
It sounds entirely wrong.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
EDIT:
If you'd care to, here's the nightmare thread where it all sussed out. Fair warning: it's twenty-two pages long, though, and I don't know if I ever got past page 16.
Oh!
Sorry!
I forgot to explain as well, "untyped" is not a "type."
There are several evidences, but I'll start here:
As for untyped bonuses, here.
Bonus
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
(If that link only deposits you at the top of the "common terms" page, you can CTRL+F to find "bonus" or can click the "[show]" option next to "Contents" look down at "Bonus" and click that - should take you to the exact section.)
If you prefer the Core rulebook, on page 11 it notes,
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.
... which starts the same, but doesn't clarify; however, first, a bonus without a type is "typeless" or "untyped" (these being synonyms), and according to this FAQ,
Ability Score Increases: According to the table and text on page 30, a character gains an ability score increase at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. How much is this increase? What ability scores does it affect?
At 4th level, a character can increase one ability score by +1. This is a typeless, nonmagical bonus that cannot be changed once selected.
For example, a fighter with Dex 13 could use this bonus to increase his Dex to 14.
A character can also increase one ability score at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level; it does not have to be the same ability score as the one chosen at an earlier level, and stacks with all other bonuses.
For example, the aforementioned fighter could use the 8th-level bonus to increase his Strength from 15 to 16, then use his 12th-level bonus to increase his Dex from 14 to 15, and so on.
... which means they must be able to stack.
Beyond that,
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two
different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.
A bonus that doesn’t have a type stacks with any bonus.
"Typeless" and "untyped" are neologisms coined for the purpose of shortening "bonus that doesn't have a type" - they are literally the same thing, and if they are not, that clarification would eliminate a number of elements within the rules from functioning (as they would refer to rules that don't exist).
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I know.
It sounds entirely wrong.
I'm not sure how you interpret the FAQ to apply in this situation. Could you explain why you think this FAQ leads to this conclusion?
because they also don’t interpret two different types of bonus stacking if they come from the “same source” even if provided by different abilities.
Nowhere in the FAQ do they say that different types of bonuses wouldn't stack. One of the examples they're giving is about stacking Charisma to AC twice through using two different bonus types (untyped and Deflection).
The one exception to the normal rules that the FAQ implements is that an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier doesn't stack with similar abilities. So Divine Grace doesn't actually grant you an unspecified bonus. It grants you a "charisma bonus" which is considered an actual bonus type for the purpose of stacking. This "untyped bonus" equal to your ability modifier does not stack with other similar abilities.
I know.
It sounds entirely wrong.
I'm not sure how you interpret the FAQ to apply in this situation. Could you explain why you think this FAQ leads to this conclusion?
The ability score bonuses FAQ does not seem to have anything to do with the question,
As glass notes, it does not directly apply.
My only cause for questioning what Paizo interprets as applying or not is what they consider as a source. As I noted, by RAW, it is my opinion that two morale bonuses - one that benefits attack and damage, and another that benefits strength - would stack with each other.
But Paizo has noted (explicitly in an effort to limit how bonuses stack) that "same source" does not apply, and there is a very small jump to question if they consider two morale bonuses that modify the same aspect (in this case a morale bonus to strength --> increase to attack and damage; and a morale bonus more directly to attack and damage) as both being "morale bonus(es) to attack and damage."
Again, this is not how I would interpret it, nor how I have done so - it is only mentioned for the sake of completeness.
A secondary example of why Paizo might not have intended (or wanted) such things to stack is that when they had the opportunity to rewrite the Barbarian for unchained, they explicitly remade it to apply to attack and damage rolls instead of to modify the ability scores (which would explicitly prevent it from stacking).
(It is worth noting that Paizo did not invent the original Barbarian rules, and to clarify again I am opining on their RAI, not positing their RAW, which I agree that it should and would stack.)
because they also don’t interpret two different types of bonus stacking if they come from the “same source” even if provided by different abilities.
Nowhere in the FAQ do they say that different types of bonuses wouldn't stack. One of the examples they're giving is about stacking Charisma to AC twice through using two different bonus types (untyped and Deflection).
The one exception to the normal rules that the FAQ implements is that an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier doesn't stack with similar abilities. So Divine Grace doesn't actually grant you an unspecified bonus. It grants you a "charisma bonus" which is considered an actual bonus type for the purpose of stacking. This "untyped bonus" equal to your ability modifier does not stack with other similar abilities.
but just for the record "untyped" is not a bonus type it is the lack of a type. Untyped bonuses stack. The reason that multiple "add stat X to thing Y" do not help is nothing to do with stacking rules, it is simpler than that. You only have one (for example) Charisma bonus so there is not second bonus for it to stack with. Per the rules in the book, "an untyped bonus equal to your Charisma bonus" would get around that but the FAQ prevents that from working.
Also, this.
The entire purpose of the FAQ is to limit bonuses from stacking by adding redundencies that were not previously within the game.
Anyway, typed bonuses of the same type (except dodge and sometimes circumstance) do not stack. However, bonuses that add to different things avoid invoking the stacking rules so can work even if they ultimately help the same roll or defence.
So the various bonuses from rage do not stack with each other or with other morale bonuses, although in some cases they can benefit the same thing indirectly. The classic example is morale bonuses to strength and morale bonuses direct to attack rolls.
Another example would be the bonus to resist spells combining with the bonus to Con in the case of Fortitude saves.
_
glass.
This is generally how I interpret things as well.
My only purpose in mentioning is to give a view of both possible RAI (though, of course, none of use can read minds... or can we), and RAW for purposes of awareness.
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Because no one has quoted it yet, here is the actual rule:
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." (CRB pg. 208)
+2 morale bonus on will saves
+4 morale bonus of saving throws vs fear
+2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells/sup/spell likeDo any of those stack? Do they all stack? Or do none stack because they are all morale bonuses for saves (even if the save "type" isn't exactly the same)?
You can only ever apply only one morale bonus to any attempted will saving throw.
While I have long been of the opinion that morale bonus to attack and morale bonus to strength would stack with each other, I’m not sure they do
They do. Only bonuses of the same type to the same thing don't stack. That strength grants a bonus to attack rolls is irrelevant, a moral bonus to strength and a moral bonus to attack rolls are different things.
Anyway, typed bonuses of the same type (except dodge and sometimes circumstance) do not stack.
For the sake of completedness, as quoted above, racial bonuses also stack (and circumstance bonuses stack by default).
The entire purpose of the FAQ is to limit bonuses from stacking by adding redundencies that were not previously within the game.
You're way overgeneralizing the FAQ. The sole purpose of the FAQ is to prevent adding the same ability score being applied twice because of minor differences in the wording. That's all. It has absolutely nothing to do with a morale bonus to strength stacking with a morale bonus to attack rolls. Battle Cry doesn't apply any ability score bonus to anything, and is thus not in any way affected by the FAQ.
Stop confusing people by talking about something that in your opinion based on sketchy evidence might be, maybe, perhaps, RAI.
Because no one has quoted it yet, here is the actual rule:
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." (CRB pg. 208)
Hahah! Finally proof that you don't actually read my posts!
(Or, if you do, you come to very different value-judgements of what was quoted. Which, that one is more than fair!)XD
Either way, I'll link you, as well as quote it:
"Typeless" and "untyped" are neologisms coined for the purpose of shortening "bonus that doesn't have a type" - they are literally the same thing, and if they are not, that clarification would eliminate a number of elements within the rules from functioning (as they would refer to rules that don't exist).Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two
different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.
A bonus that doesn’t have a type stacks with any bonus.
Just in case you're curious, that's post seven, your post is eleven, and unless someone ninja's it, this should be post twelve. :D
Your quote is certainly longer, though - you quote the part above where I do, which is a valid source, though both clarify the same thing about bonuses (or penalties) without a type which is the most relevant thing at-hand.
I mean, let my literally copy/paste (well re-type) from my CRB:
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn’t have a type stacks with any bonus.
I mean, I could go on, but, I really am tired of writing stuff that I pointed the person to already, and, for summing the remaining elements (that don't actually apply):
- Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: pick the bigger (applies to identical spells only)
- Same Effect with Differing Results: last spell, usually make the other irrelevant
- One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: both exist, but one is made useless
- Multiple Mental Control Effects: usually target does both to the best, but on two totally conflicting, casters roll opposed CHA
... mostly sums them up, unless anyone has a problem with the way they are described.
(The remaining section is Spells with Opposite Effects {apply the full of both; check text to see if they negate each other as a special } and Instantaneous Effects {they work one after the other }.)
You're way overgeneralizing the FAQ. The sole purpose of the FAQ is to prevent adding the same ability score being applied twice because of minor differences in the wording. That's all.
Quite probably! I can definitely do that.
Stop confusing people by talking about something that in your opinion based on sketchy evidence might be, maybe, perhaps, RAI.
Sure deal, dude! And I'd like to formally apologize for confusion caused by my off-hand comment (and follow-up to clarify with a fellow poster who seemed, based on his use of "typless" as a type, to be unaware of the FAQ) - it is very definitely conversation drift rather than sticking to the OP, and for any problems that caused, I really am sorry.
There are several threads you've been in, recently, where you've used rather strong language or tone, and, if that's not intentional, it's probably a good time to take a look at how you're wording things. Usually, I'd recommend reading things as people generally trying to be genuine and friendly in tone - as I honestly am right now - as that usually results in better over-all social interactions. Maybe you do and maybe that's how you mean it, and if you do, I'm sorry for misreading your tone as well. :)
EDIT 3: I wish to clarify, this is not meant in an angry or aggressive tone - I realize how such things can come across, so that's why I'm being very explicit. Honestly, I just want you to have an over-all good experience here. As someone who has been extremely passionate before, and still am, I really do understand the intense feelings that come when you're trying to be correct or accurate or otherwise show folks how the rules actually are. I honestly get that.
Also, I avoided sending this in DM, because I felt you might find it more aggressive if I did so, and I'm really just trying to have a friendly conversation. Again: apologies of the tone comes off harsher than intended.
Either way, I'll drop this particular thread here - this isn't an attempt at calling you out or trying to start a discussion about your particular habits, no matter what it may seem like. It's not an attack or a rebuttle to anything. Just a suggestion to make the place nicer for everyone - hopefully including you. Hugs, my dude, with peace and respect. You're clearly well-versed in a lot of stuff. And that's cool. And I do appreciate your various rules quotes and attempts at rationalization, regardless of how it might seem.
EDIT: formatting! Made a thing bigger and bold. Should look more like the Core Rulebook that way. :D
EDIT 2: putting something in spoiler because it, too, is conversation drift, and it is more meant for direct communication.
