In the class description of the Stargazer prestige class, it is stated that "At 3rd level, the stargazer gains the Stars subdomain in addition to any domains he already has. His stargazer levels count as (and stack with) cleric levels when determining which domain abilities he gains and their effects. If he isn’t a cleric, the subdomain’s spells are added to his class spell list (if necessary) and to his spells known, spellbook, familiar, or similar source. Spells added this way may be cast only once per day, unless using the stars are right ability. He can use the stars are right ability regardless of his spellcasting class."
I'm making a character with 9 Sorcerer/1 Cleric/10 Stargazer, and I was curious as to how this class ability applies if I plan on using the Stargazer's "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" level bonus exclusively for my Sorcerer spellcasting- would the subdomain spells be added to my known Sorcerer spells, usable once per day, as though I had no levels in Cleric? Or would I only have access to the 1st-level spell from that domain, since I do technically have levels in Cleric, but only one?
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The key is "If he isn't a cleric"
You are a cleric.
The key is "If he isn't a cleric"
You are a cleric.
So if I understand this correctly, I would only have access to the 1st-level spell from that domain (in this case, feather fall)? Whereas if I instead had no Cleric levels, I would have access to all of the domain's spells, but only usable once per day?
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So clearly the author of the prestige class didn't consider multiclassing when writing the language of the ability. Some possibilities are easy to parse:
If you had entirely cleric levels, you would treat these just like any other domain spells. (Get one domain slot of each level, and if the spell isn't on the cleric spell list you can only prepare it in a domain slot.)
If you had all sorcerer levels, you would add the spells to your sorcerer spell list and list of spells known. So you could cast them as many times per day as you had appropriate spell slots.
But it isn't clear when you are a multiclass caster. Does a witch/wizard add the spells to both classes' spell lists?
The super-literal reading of your particular situation is indeed that you don't get to add them to the sorcerer spell list because you *are* a cleric. But that doesn't seem to be the intent here. My personal way of handling this (definitely not in the text) would be to have you pick which way to handle the spells (added to cleric or to sorcerer) when you got your first level, and you would have to stick to it from then on out.
So if I understand this correctly, I would only have access to the 1st-level spell from that domain (in this case, feather fall)? Whereas if I instead had no Cleric levels, I would have access to all of the domain's spells, but only usable once per day?The key is "If he isn't a cleric"
You are a cleric.
Yup. Consider swapping sorceror for oracle or witch.
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Yup. Consider swapping sorceror for oracle or witch.So if I understand this correctly, I would only have access to the 1st-level spell from that domain (in this case, feather fall)? Whereas if I instead had no Cleric levels, I would have access to all of the domain's spells, but only usable once per day?The key is "If he isn't a cleric"
You are a cleric.
How does this help with Lucky's original problem? A cleric/oracle would still have the same domain spell issue as a cleric/sorcerer of being only a 1st level cleric. Or this just a general suggestion that you think oracle or witch is a better choice than sorcerer?
How does this help with Lucky's original problem? A cleric/oracle would still have the same domain spell issue as a cleric/sorcerer of being only a 1st level cleric. Or this just a general suggestion that you think oracle or witch is a better choice than sorcerer?Yup. Consider swapping sorceror for oracle or witch.So if I understand this correctly, I would only have access to the 1st-level spell from that domain (in this case, feather fall)? Whereas if I instead had no Cleric levels, I would have access to all of the domain's spells, but only usable once per day?The key is "If he isn't a cleric"
You are a cleric.
General suggestion. The PRC has specific synergies with like 4 classes and none of them are sorcerer. The answer to OP's problem is 'there's no way to do it unless you don't take cleric levels'
Also i suggested witch because it saves his hexes DC's to have a bunch of stacked levels of witch. No sense in having hexes where the save or effect is so low its not worth using them.
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I tend to build my characters thematically, around an idea or backstory, as opposed to trying to optimize everything right down to the minutiae.
That being said, I don't think my choices have gimped this character significantly enough to cause any issues with the gameplay. I mean, sure, I'm sacrificing two bloodline powers, two bloodline feats, and five bloodline spells by limiting myself to nine levels of Sorcerer progression, but by taking one level in Cleric, and the rest in Stargazer, I still end up casting as a 19th-level Sorcerer, with the powers and 1st-level spells of three domains, a familiar, two hexes (Cauldron and Secret, neither of which have level-dependent DCs or effects that wouldn't be covered by the Stargazer levels), two Oracle revelations, and access to all the Stargazer's sidereal arcana, one of which (The Mother) would allow me to use Channel Energy as an 11th-level Cleric.
All in all, it perfectly fits the role and background that I envision for my character, and I don't feel as though the trade-off is really that bad.
I tend to build my characters thematically, around an idea or backstory, as opposed to trying to optimize everything right down to the minutiae.
That being said, I don't think my choices have gimped this character significantly enough to cause any issues with the gameplay. I mean, sure, I'm sacrificing two bloodline powers, two bloodline feats, and five bloodline spells by limiting myself to nine levels of Sorcerer progression, but by taking one level in Cleric, and the rest in Stargazer, I still end up casting as a 19th-level Sorcerer, with the powers and 1st-level spells of three domains, a familiar, two hexes (Cauldron and Secret, neither of which have level-dependent DCs or effects that wouldn't be covered by the Stargazer levels), two Oracle revelations, and access to all the Stargazer's sidereal arcana, one of which (The Mother) would allow me to use Channel Energy as an 11th-level Cleric.
All in all, it perfectly fits the role and background that I envision for my character, and I don't feel as though the trade-off is really that bad.
My suggestion IS the thematic choice though, witch is a generally weaker spell list than sorcerer. I'd argue pushing your way into the sorc/wizard spell list represents far more optimization than stacking levels for the purpose of hexes.
I tend to build my characters thematically, around an idea or backstory, as opposed to trying to optimize everything right down to the minutiae.
That being said, I don't think my choices have gimped this character significantly enough to cause any issues with the gameplay. I mean, sure, I'm sacrificing two bloodline powers, two bloodline feats, and five bloodline spells by limiting myself to nine levels of Sorcerer progression, but by taking one level in Cleric, and the rest in Stargazer, I still end up casting as a 19th-level Sorcerer, with the powers and 1st-level spells of three domains, a familiar, two hexes (Cauldron and Secret, neither of which have level-dependent DCs or effects that wouldn't be covered by the Stargazer levels), two Oracle revelations, and access to all the Stargazer's sidereal arcana, one of which (The Mother) would allow me to use Channel Energy as an 11th-level Cleric.
All in all, it perfectly fits the role and background that I envision for my character, and I don't feel as though the trade-off is really that bad.
My suggestion IS the thematic choice though, witch is a generally weaker spell list than sorcerer. I'd argue pushing your way into the sorc/wizard spell list represents far more optimization than stacking levels for the purpose of hexes.
Except I'm not picking Sorcerer in an attempt to "push my way into" the spell list, but rather for access to this bloodline because, again, it's thematically apropos for this character.
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All in all, it perfectly fits the role and background that I envision for my character, and I don't feel as though the trade-off is really that bad.
It's definitely not a bad tradeoff at all. The Stargazer is quite a bit out of scale for a Paizo prestige class. The powers of "you automatically get a bit from the oracle, a bit from the witch, a bit from the cleric, some more unique option to choose from, and it's a full casting progression" mean there's really no bad choice among the 9-level casting classes.
My suggestion IS the thematic choice though, witch is a generally weaker spell list than sorcerer. I'd argue pushing your way into the sorc/wizard spell list represents far more optimization than stacking levels for the purpose of hexes.
It is A thematic choice. Although the abilities slightly encourage you to play a cleric, witch, or oracle there's no lore specifying that those are the predominant classes that become Stargazers.
As for the optimization... that's going to be a matter of perspective. Even if you accept that the sorcerer/wizard spell list is better than the witch, a witch/stargazer's levels stack for the power of hexes. Which can give that build a substantial comparative boost while leveling up. (A witch 5/stargazer 3 counts as an 8th-level witch for hexes. A sorcerer 6/stargazer 2 counts as a 2nd-level witch. It doesn't matter for the two hexes Lucky wants, but it would with evil eye, misfortune, anything with a duration, etc.)
Power is always a matter of opinion, (and I am of the opinion that the Stargazer is too powerful) but I really don't see this as shenanigans or an attempt to "force" the way onto the sorcerer/wizard list.
Sorry to zombie\derail this thread but the Mystery Magic ability says that you get the Stars subdomain. Does this mean you get the Void domain as well? I know you usually have to have the main domain to take the subdomain, but if that were the case I would think the ability would read something like "you gain the Void domain with the Stars subdomain". It's written so specifically that it makes me think you would only get the subdomain. And since specific rules overrule general rules etc...
I'm pretty sure a subdomain includes the unchanged parts of the parent domain. They just only list the changes.
I know you usually have to have the main domain to take the subdomain
That's not how it works. A subdomain is standalone - you don't take a domain and than the subdomain, you only take the subdomain, and you never have the parent domain. Once selected (or otherwise gained), a subdomain is exactly like any other domain. The "sub" part is only for the player to know what they have to look for in the book, there is no mechanical difference.
A subdomain write-up is like an archetype write-up - the description only lists the changed things, but you still get everything else from the class/domain. A subdomain still has two powers and nine domain spells just like any other domain. A full write-up of the stars subdomain is this:
Granted Powers: Guarded Mind and The Stars Are Right
Domain Spells: 1st—feather fall, 2nd—hypnotic pattern, 3rd—fly, 4th—lesser planar binding, 5th—overland flight, 6th—planar binding, 7th—sunbeam, 8th—greater planar binding, 9th—meteor swarm.
Both powers and all nine spells are part of the domain, and thus a Stargazer gets all of that.
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Every domain has a number of subdomains associated with it (see Table 2–11 for a complete list). Each subdomain replaces a granted power and a number of spells in the domain’s granted spell list. . . If a cleric selects a subdomain, she cannot select its associated domain as her other domain choice (in effect, the subdomain replaces its associated domain). Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains.