The rule says "If you are trained in all martial weapons, you can choose an uncommon advanced weapon with such a trait. You gain access to that weapon, and for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a martial weapon."
But later fighter says "Your proficiency ranks for simple and martial weapons and unarmed attacks increase to master."
I've always read that to mean if your martial weapon proficiency increases then so does your proficiency in that particular advanced weapon.
Which means Unconventional Expertise is pointless for a fighter, but not certain other classes which have more limited weapon choices.
I do agree you could choose to narrowly interpret the restriction "for the purpose of determining your proficiency" but that would mean advanced weapons would have a huge penalty and be stuck at trained for eveyone but Fighter till level 13 and Unconventional Expertise. This gives them a penalty of 2 to hit in a lot of level ranges for many classes even fighters, and effectively makes them pointless.
Just saw this ancestry feat last night (it's kind of hidden). My fighter already has Unconventional Weaponry to get the gnome flickmace. I thought that it would scale like other martial weapons, but the Expertise feat makes it sound like you need that one for the proficiency to increase. I'm very confused.
Your Fighter is just fine. The flickmace proficiency will improve with your martial weapons. Unconventional Expertise is there for classes that don't progress all martial weapons.
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Which means Unconventional Expertise is pointless for a fighter
Not necessarily true.
Fighters get accelerated proficiency with a specific set of weapons faster than normal.
Unconventional Expertise would let the fighter get Legendary in the flickmace at 13 even if their chosen weapon group wasn't flails, instead of 19 when general martial proficiency gets to legendary.
Expertise is likewise useful for other classes that only get specific proficiency, like Rogues who only get a select number of martial weapons or Wizards who never even get simple weapon proficiency (for some stupid reason) and need Expertise even for weapons they treat as simple.
Just to be clear, I can select flails for Fighter Weapon Mastery at 5th level, then change to swords for Weapon Legend, yes?
There is nothing to say otherwise.
Expertise is likewise useful for other classes that only get specific proficiency, like Rogues who only get a select number of martial weapons or Wizards who never even get simple weapon proficiency (for some stupid reason) and need Expertise even for weapons they treat as simple.
Just startet to research that myself. For a wizard the
Unconventional Weaponry wouldn't make any sense since he doesn't get any proficiency in that weapon because of his lack of proficiency in simple weapons. So it wouldn't make sense for him to take Unconventional Expertise either.
Just to be clear, I can select flails for Fighter Weapon Mastery at 5th level, then change to swords for Weapon Legend, yes?There is nothing to say otherwise.
Agreed. The only thing in the rules about it that would indicate that they need to be the same weapon group is that Fighter Weapon Mastery says to pick 'your preferred weapons' and Weapon Legend says 'your favorite weapons'. For many characters that is going to be the same weapon and weapon group. But there is no rules reason that a character can't change their mind on what their preferred favorite weapon is between level 5 and level 13.
Expertise is likewise useful for other classes that only get specific proficiency, like Rogues who only get a select number of martial weapons or Wizards who never even get simple weapon proficiency (for some stupid reason) and need Expertise even for weapons they treat as simple.
Just startet to research that myself. For a wizard the
Unconventional Weaponry wouldn't make any sense since he doesn't get any proficiency in that weapon because of his lack of proficiency in simple weapons. So it wouldn't make sense for him to take Unconventional Expertise either.
The simplest solution is to take the Weapon Proficiency general feat. Take it through Versatile Heritage and your human wizard can be swinging an Elven Curve Blade at first level.
Other options for a Wizard are the Magus MC dedication or Fighter MC dedication.
Of course, Magus MC wasn't available back in 2020.
Or just be a Rune Witch or Magus to start with if you are going to be using weapons regularly. Wizard is for if you neglect your weapon training in order to get more spell slots.
Actually I'm not looking for a way to get a wizard to wield any weapon, I'm looking for a way to make sense of Unconventional Expertise and I can't find ANY.
Actually I'm not looking for a way to get a wizard to wield any weapon, I'm looking for a way to make sense of Unconventional Expertise and I can't find ANY.
Consider the Wizard I was describing before. Because Wizards don't advance all Simple Weapons, they would never become Expert in their Elven Curve Blade even though they would become Expert with daggers, staves, etc. at level 11.
By taking Unconventional Expertise they would become Expert with the Elven Curve Blade at level 13. (It's a little later than desirable, but better then never.) That's the reason for the feat.
Similarly Rogues, which only advance some Martial Weapons, can use this feat to get Master proficiency with an Advanced Weapon that they chose with Unconventional Weaponry. (They'd have to become Trained in all Martial Weapons first, of course.)
Unconventional Expertise is for the classes with oddball Weapon Proficiency advancements.
Actually I'm not looking for a way to get a wizard to wield any weapon, I'm looking for a way to make sense of Unconventional Expertise and I can't find ANY.Consider the Wizard I was describing before. Because Wizards don't advance all Simple Weapons, they would never become Expert in their Elven Curve Blade even though they would become Expert with daggers, staves, etc. at level 11.
By taking Unconventional Expertise they would become Expert with the Elven Curve Blade at level 13. (It's a little later than desirable, but better then never.) That's the reason for the feat.
I did understand that, but to take Unconventional Expertise they have to take Unconventional Weaponry first which would make no sense for them at all bevor also taking Unconventional Expertise.
With Unconventional Weaponry they would get NOT proficiency in the weapon they choose.
Similarly Rogues, which only advance some Martial Weapons, can use this feat to get Master proficiency with an Advanced Weapon that they chose with Unconventional Weaponry. (They'd have to become Trained in all Martial Weapons first, of course.)Unconventional Expertise is for the classes with oddball Weapon Proficiency advancements.
But in those cases the Unconventional Weaponry doesn't make sense on it's own.
Actually I'm not looking for a way to get a wizard to wield any weapon, I'm looking for a way to make sense of Unconventional Expertise and I can't find ANY.Consider the Wizard I was describing before. Because Wizards don't advance all Simple Weapons, they would never become Expert in their Elven Curve Blade even though they would become Expert with daggers, staves, etc. at level 11.
By taking Unconventional Expertise they would become Expert with the Elven Curve Blade at level 13. (It's a little later than desirable, but better then never.) That's the reason for the feat.
I did understand that, but to take Unconventional Expertise they have to take Unconventional Weaponry first which would make no sense for them at all bevor also taking Unconventional Expertise.
With Unconventional Weaponry they would get NOT proficiency in the weapon they choose.
I'll walk through the Wizard example step by step.
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Wally is a 1st level, human Wizard. He wants to use an Elven Curve Blade (ECB), but there are two problems with that.
1.) The ECB is Uncommon so Wally needs to get access.
2.) The ECB is a Martial Weapon, and Wally is only proficient in a specific group of Simple Weapons: club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff.
Luckily, Wally is a human so he has ways to address both of those issues at 1st level.
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Wally takes Versatile Heritage which gives him a 1st level General Feat at first level instead of having to wait until third level like most. He selects the Weapon Proficiency feat. He is now Trained in all Simple Weapons.
Now Wally takes Unconventional Weaponry as his 1st level Ancestry Feat and selects the ECB. That resolves both previous issues.
1.) Unconventional Weaponry grants Wally access to the ECB.
2.) Unconventional Weaponry let's Wally treat the ECB as a Simple Weapon for purposes of Proficiency. Since the Weapon Proficiency feat made him Trained in ALL Simple Weapons, Wally is now Trained with the ECB.
All is good until level 11.
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At level 11, Wally becomes Expert with his class weapons: club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff. Sadly, he doesn't become Expert with his beloved ECB so Wally is now better at attacking with clubs and daggers than he is with the weapon that he wants to use.
But Wally only needs to wait two levels for a solution.
At 13th level Wally takes the Unconventional Expertise Ancestry Feat. This lets Wally's ECB advance "[w]henever [he] gain[s] a class feature that grants [him] expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons." Wally's class has granted him Expert Proficiency with certain weapons (the club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff) so Unconventional Expertise gives him the same Expert Proficiency with his ECB
Wally is happy again.
With Unconventional Weaponry they would get NOT proficiency in the weapon they choose.
Now you can see that Wally does get Trained with the ECB at 1st level because he also took Weapon Proficiency to get Trained with all Simple Weapons.
But in those cases the Unconventional Weaponry doesn't make sense on it's own.Similarly Rogues, which only advance some Martial Weapons, can use this feat to get Master proficiency with an Advanced Weapon that they chose with Unconventional Weaponry. (They'd have to become Trained in all Martial Weapons first, of course.)
Unconventional Expertise is for the classes with oddball Weapon Proficiency advancements.
The same approach works for Rogues, Sorcerers, and others who are Trained in all Simple Weapons but not in all Martial Weapons and would like an Advanced Weapon.
Taking Weapon Proficiency gets them Trained in all Martial Weapons, but that proficiency doesn't advance with their class weapons.
Taking Unconventional Weaponry gets them access to an Advanced Weapon which is treated as Martial for proficiency.
So Sally the Sorcerer can start using a Flickmace at 1st level.
It's going to fall behind her class weapons at higher levels, but at 13th, she can take Unconventional Expertise so it matches the Simple Weapons.
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@gisher
Thanks a lot for this detailed walk through, now it makes sense to me.
Even though that seemed like a very specialized usage I can't find any other way to get to the same result.
@gisher
Thanks a lot for this detailed walk through, now it makes sense to me.
Even though that seemed like a very specialized usage I can't find any other way to get to the same result.
You're welcome. I remember how hard it was to figure all of this out when the CRB first came out.
There are other ways to get the same results. For example:
1.) If Wally took the Magus Multiclass Dedication then he wouldn't need to take Weapon Proficiency to become Trained in all Simple Weapons.
2.) If Wally or Sally took the Fighter Multiclass Dedication then they wouldn't need to take Weapon Proficiency to become Trained in all Simple Weapons and Martial Weapons. They could then take Diverse Weapon Expert at 12th level in place of Unconventional Expertise at 13th. (Note that this feat wouldn't let someone like a Rogue get Master Proficiency with their chosen weapon.)
3.) If Wally took the Mauler Dedication then he wouldn't need the Weapon Proficiency feat and his ECB proficiency would automatically increase to Expert at 11th level.
But all of these approaches would require waiting until 2nd level to use the weapon, require class feats, and lock you out of other archetypes until you take two more archetype feats. The approaches I laid out earlier are accomplished solely through your heritage and ancestry feats and let you start using the weapon at 1st level.