| RaptorJesues |
Greeting paesants, this is my first try at making some sort of guide and i hope it does not suck too mutch. If you have critiques or feedback I'll be more than happy to hear it.
A Guide to Evil Champions
| lemeres |
I would rate Attack of opportunity higher. It allows you too set up "lose/lose" situations.
As a tyrant, I would want to walk directly next to you. If you attack me, you take damage. But if you use a regular move action to move away, then you take damage. And a 4d10 halberd often hits around the same as all those d6's.
The GM COULD use step actions. Which means you spend actions just to move 5' (usually away from the squishy party members). And then you have to walk AROUND my Circle of Pain. Wasted time basically means you are an AoE slow effect. At some point, it is just more efficient to have low value monsters eat the hit and DO SOMETHING, rather than being target practice for the archers and blasters.
It also punishes people that take the drop prone problem. They would accept "only" taking a halberd to the face, rather a ton of persistent mental damage.
| Darksol the Painbringer |
I would add that if you are playing campaigns with good amounts of downtime that Performance would be more applicable to earning income than using a Lore or Craft skill. It would also synergize better with Bard dedication if you are taking feats like Inspire Heroics or Lingering Performance. Not to mention skill feats that let you use Performance in place of certain Diplomacy or Intimidate checks, really helps eliminate the amount of skills you need, since Champions only get like 4 trained skills to work with.
A greatsword is a weaker version of a bastard sword since it lacks the versatility to go one-handed, and its only other benefit is Versatile P, which as you note in the Longsword description, isn't really worth jack. Greatsword should be B or even C.
I would raise Shock and Flaming to be the same tier, since both offer free flat damage on critical hits, with Flaming being persistent damage and Shock being free AoE damage that ignores AC, saves, etc. Frost can be very easily saved against by the time it becomes commonplace, and Thundering's benefits are very weak unless the enemies are benefitting from some sort of Inspire Courage or are spellcasters, with Corrosive potentially destroying gear drops.
You did not add Unholy to the weapon properties, which is something that most Evil Champions can (and probably would) consider taking with their Blade Ally. I would probably put it at a C, since the odds of it coming up aren't very likely unless you're fighting Good creatures. Since this can be changed on a day-by-day basis with their Blade Ally, it's actually not so bad as a choice if you know what you're fighting ahead of time.
| Falco271 |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Greeting paesants, this is my first try at making some sort of guide and i hope it does not suck too mutch. If you have critiques or feedback I'll be more than happy to hear it.
A Guide to Evil Champions
I don't do evil chars usually, but the Tyrant is tempting.
One remark in the quick scan I did: You say Sword and Board is A, but you rate Bastion and Dual Weapon both B. Sword and Board can really use both Bastion and Dual Weapon. Bastion for free hand options (athletics: trip, grapple), free action disarm, reactive shield, all very good options for sword and board champions. Dual weapon for Double slice and Flencing slice and more offensive options. Lots of options for champions all of a sudden.
| RaptorJesues |
I don't do evil chars usually, but the Tyrant is tempting.
One remark in the quick scan I did: You say Sword and Board is A, but you rate Bastion and Dual Weapon both B. Sword and Board can really use both Bastion and Dual Weapon. Bastion for free hand options (athletics: trip, grapple), free action disarm, reactive shield, all very good options for sword and board champions. Dual weapon for Double slice and Flencing slice and more offensive options. Lots of options for champions all of a sudden.
Yeah, he is sexy, right? As for the two archetypes mentioned, a B rating is a really good one, just means it is not mandatory. You can very well sword and board without speccing into the mentioned archetypes, but if you do you will probably not regret it. Yes, flensing slice is absolutely amazing and not mentioning it was a lacking on my part, fixing now.
| RaptorJesues |
I would add that if you are playing campaigns with good amounts of downtime that Performance would be more applicable to earning income than using a Lore or Craft skill. It would also synergize better with Bard dedication if you are taking feats like Inspire Heroics or Lingering Performance. Not to mention skill feats that let you use Performance in place of certain Diplomacy or Intimidate checks, really helps eliminate the amount of skills you need, since Champions only get like 4 trained skills to work with.
A greatsword is a weaker version of a bastard sword since it lacks the versatility to go one-handed, and its only other benefit is Versatile P, which as you note in the Longsword description, isn't really worth jack. Greatsword should be B or even C.
I would raise Shock and Flaming to be the same tier, since both offer free flat damage on critical hits, with Flaming being persistent damage and Shock being free AoE damage that ignores AC, saves, etc. Frost can be very easily saved against by the time it becomes commonplace, and Thundering's benefits are very weak unless the enemies are benefitting from some sort of Inspire Courage or are spellcasters, with Corrosive potentially destroying gear drops.
You did not add Unholy to the weapon properties, which is something that most Evil Champions can (and probably would) consider taking with their Blade Ally. I would probably put it at a C, since the odds of it coming up aren't very likely unless you're fighting Good creatures. Since this can be changed on a day-by-day basis with their Blade Ally, it's actually not so bad as a choice if you know what you're fighting ahead of time.
The performance thing is a bit situational but also quite fair, i will mention it, thank you.
Regarding the greatsword, yes, the trait is worse BUT if you are going for a two handed buil you would not care for it for two reasons:
1st, you are probably never using it with one hand since you will probably not have a shield, ence the trait even if not amazing is still better.
2nd, since the greatsword is a two hander and the bastard sword is not, you can morph it into a reach weapon when you need since the shifting weapon property only allow you to morph a weapon that requires the same numbers of hand and regardless of traits the bastard sword is still a one hander. I dont konw if your DM allows you otherwise, in such a case then yes, the bastard sword would be as good if not better but this is not my situation and i rated it accordingly.
Regarding shock, the extra damage is almost nothing at that level but it is also true that frost DC scales really badly. I'll probably just downgrade frost to B as well.
Unholy is a thing but it also is almost useless since you are probably never using it. I wil mention it just to specify this but i do not regard it as a C.
| RaptorJesues |
Remember that gnomes, apart from that exploit weapon, have the only heritage which gives you negative energy resistance equal to half your level, which is excellent for an antipaladin.
A good ( if not better, since you won't be using harm) alternative to the damphir.
I dont see why though, a dhampir is taking no damage at all from the reaction and can straight up heal from the touch of corruption while the gnome still takes a bit of damage in the first levels and cant heal from negative energy
| HumbleGamer |
A damphir is healed by negative energy healings, but it is not an undead.
If you read the touch of corruption description it explicitly says it works on undeads ( even on yourself if you are undead, but the damphir trait is not the undead trait, so you are healed by negative energy but you are not an undead ).
Not to say that you will be healed as any other character ( your healer will not be forced to bring both harm and heal spells, nor be afraid of using aoe heals).
There is barely any comparison, unless you plan a full negative heal characters party.
| RaptorJesues |
I would rate Attack of opportunity higher. It allows you too set up "lose/lose" situations.
As a tyrant, I would want to walk directly next to you. If you attack me, you take damage. But if you use a regular move action to move away, then you take damage. And a 4d10 halberd often hits around the same as all those d6's.
The GM COULD use step actions. Which means you spend actions just to move 5' (usually away from the squishy party members). And then you have to walk AROUND my Circle of Pain. Wasted time basically means you are an AoE slow effect. At some point, it is just more efficient to have low value monsters eat the hit and DO SOMETHING, rather than being target practice for the archers and blasters.
It also punishes people that take the drop prone problem. They would accept "only" taking a halberd to the face, rather a ton of persistent mental damage.
So here is a thing. I usually find myself swarmed by enemies (at least two) and i almos immediatly have my champion reaction triggered. I do agree that the attack of opportunity is really good but at level six you have two other important options:
if you have a steed you are taking loyal warshorse and if you are taking an archetype for combat (and you SHOULD) you will probably be better off taking the usually very good level six feat. But if you dont find yourself in those situations absolutely go for AOO. Mind that a B rating means that the feat is really good but just not mandatory. That said, if you have reach you probably want AOO and i will add this caveat to the text.| RaptorJesues |
A damphir is healed by negative energy healings, but it is not an undead.
If you read the touch of corruption description it explicitly says it works on undeads ( even on yourself if you are undead, but the damphir trait is not the undead trait, so you are healed by negative energy but you are not an undead ).
Not to say that you will be healed as any other character ( your healer will not be forced to bring both harm and heal spells, nor be afraid of using aoe heals).
There is barely any comparison, unless you plan a full negative heal characters party.
Negative Healing:
A creature with negative healing draws health from negative energy rather than positive energy. It is damaged by positive damage and is not healed by positive healing effects. It does not take negative damage, and it is healed by negative effects that heal undead.Touch of corruption heals undeads, ence it heals the damphir since it is specified in negative healing text.
| HumbleGamer |
I misread the damphir trait.
It's slightly better for what concerns self sustain then, but problematic for what concerns the healer ( knowing you will go down and need healing as any other characrer, and a touch of corruption won't take you alive, even if the 2 extra ac is so damn good ).
Given a dedicated party, might be the best heritage indeed.
| RaptorJesues |
I misread the damphir trait.
It's slightly better for what concerns self sustain then, but problematic for what concerns the healer ( knowing you will go down and need healing as any other characrer, and a touch of corruption won't take you alive, even if the 2 extra ac is so damn good ).
Given a dedicated party, might be the best heritage indeed.
exactly, and an evil party is probably more likely to have a negative font cleric. That would be really good (and everyone should probably be a dhampir at that point xD)
| HumbleGamer |
HumbleGamer wrote:exactly, and an evil party is probably more likely to have a negative font cleric. That would be really good (and everyone should probably be a dhampir at that point xD)I misread the damphir trait.
It's slightly better for what concerns self sustain then, but problematic for what concerns the healer ( knowing you will go down and need healing as any other characrer, and a touch of corruption won't take you alive, even if the 2 extra ac is so damn good ).
Given a dedicated party, might be the best heritage indeed.
Yeah, a damphir squad ( eventually even a non damphir bone oracle could fit) would be the read evil deal.
| Darksol the Painbringer |
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:I would add that if you are playing campaigns with good amounts of downtime that Performance would be more applicable to earning income than using a Lore or Craft skill. It would also synergize better with Bard dedication if you are taking feats like Inspire Heroics or Lingering Performance. Not to mention skill feats that let you use Performance in place of certain Diplomacy or Intimidate checks, really helps eliminate the amount of skills you need, since Champions only get like 4 trained skills to work with.
A greatsword is a weaker version of a bastard sword since it lacks the versatility to go one-handed, and its only other benefit is Versatile P, which as you note in the Longsword description, isn't really worth jack. Greatsword should be B or even C.
I would raise Shock and Flaming to be the same tier, since both offer free flat damage on critical hits, with Flaming being persistent damage and Shock being free AoE damage that ignores AC, saves, etc. Frost can be very easily saved against by the time it becomes commonplace, and Thundering's benefits are very weak unless the enemies are benefitting from some sort of Inspire Courage or are spellcasters, with Corrosive potentially destroying gear drops.
You did not add Unholy to the weapon properties, which is something that most Evil Champions can (and probably would) consider taking with their Blade Ally. I would probably put it at a C, since the odds of it coming up aren't very likely unless you're fighting Good creatures. Since this can be changed on a day-by-day basis with their Blade Ally, it's actually not so bad as a choice if you know what you're fighting ahead of time.
The performance thing is a bit situational but also quite fair, i will mention it, thank you.
Regarding the greatsword, yes, the trait is worse BUT if you are going for a two handed buil you would not care for it for two reasons:
1st, you are probably never using it with one hand since you will probably not have a shield,...
That's true, but with the Bastard Sword, you still have the flexibility, as a sword-and-board, to utilize Two-hand benefits as needed, such as if your shield is broken from a fighting dragging on or you haven't been able to repair it between fights. Or you just need to deliver that big damage hit there and then.
To be fair, Shocking damage is also less likely to be resisted or be immune to, compared to fire or even frost. There aren't many things that are immune or resistant to electricity. Which is another big draw to a weapon that does Sonic damage, like Thundering, or even Corrosive, which is as-hard to resist as Shocking damage, and is decent for breaking enemy equipment and making fights considerably easier as a result.
| lemeres |
I view the main advantage of the bastard sword is that it is still usable, even in the rare circumstance were you 'have to' use your other hand for something.
Maybe you need to grapple to stop some fast, small creature with a bad fort save from getting away. Maybe you have to hold onto a macguffin. Heck, you might be the only party member with good strength, and you are the only one that isn't encumbered (and slowed down) when you have to carry a passed out party member during a speedy retreat.
Edit- Imagine the cleric got taken out, the wizard doesn't have good spells prepared, and the other party member is a halfling thief rogue.
| lemeres |
I was all excited about making dhampir antipaladins, what with their negative healing, but sadly it doesn't work with Destructive Vengeance.
My cheese went bad before I could even eat it.
It doesn't protect you from destructive vengeance, but it does help you survive. Mostly because you get the ability to patch yourself up with your touch of corruption.
| HumbleGamer |
Perpdepog wrote:It doesn't protect you from destructive vengeance, but it does help you survive. Mostly because you get the ability to patch yourself up with your touch of corruption.I was all excited about making dhampir antipaladins, what with their negative healing, but sadly it doesn't work with Destructive Vengeance.
My cheese went bad before I could even eat it.
I think he meant that that damphir is not healed by that specific negative damage.
Since it has negative healing, a damphir won't take damage from it ( if it chooses to use negative damage), but since the negative damage from the reaction has not the healing trait, it also won't get healed from it.
| Perpdepog |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
lemeres wrote:Perpdepog wrote:It doesn't protect you from destructive vengeance, but it does help you survive. Mostly because you get the ability to patch yourself up with your touch of corruption.I was all excited about making dhampir antipaladins, what with their negative healing, but sadly it doesn't work with Destructive Vengeance.
My cheese went bad before I could even eat it.I think he meant that that damphir is not healed by that specific negative damage.
Since it has negative healing, a damphir won't take damage from it ( if it chooses to use negative damage), but since the negative damage from the reaction has not the healing trait, it also won't get healed from it.
Actually, I meant it because the negative damage only gets dealt to your opponent. The damage you take is more of the type of damage you already took.
| HumbleGamer |
HumbleGamer wrote:Actually, I meant it because the negative damage only gets dealt to your opponent. The damage you take is more of the type of damage you already took.lemeres wrote:Perpdepog wrote:It doesn't protect you from destructive vengeance, but it does help you survive. Mostly because you get the ability to patch yourself up with your touch of corruption.I was all excited about making dhampir antipaladins, what with their negative healing, but sadly it doesn't work with Destructive Vengeance.
My cheese went bad before I could even eat it.I think he meant that that damphir is not healed by that specific negative damage.
Since it has negative healing, a damphir won't take damage from it ( if it chooses to use negative damage), but since the negative damage from the reaction has not the healing trait, it also won't get healed from it.
You are right.
I thought the champion could choose the damage type for both him and the enemy ( I wonder what happens in case of multiple damage, like piercing + fire).
The more I look into evil causes, the more they seems way below any good one ( more freedom of choice indeed, but talking about combat stuff I see no comparison).
| Perpdepog |
I think that degree of freedom is what is supposed to balance them out. Evil champions' reactions trigger when they get hit, rather than a buddy within x number of feet, so they are much more likely to come online with much less positioning required on the part of the party.
Whether the balance is right I have no idea, but I am pretty sure that was the intent.