Ranged Magus Spellstrike and Bombs

[Derek Dalton]

Yeah I know asking way too many questions. I'm sure this is a wild one. So Card Caster Magus changes the spell strike feature to be only used with ranged weapons. Well a bombs is considered a weapon. So if I happened to be a dual classed Magus Alchemist could I use the spell strike with my bombs?
Yes I am aware this isn't optimal at all. Been experimenting with a Green Goblin concept for pathfinder. While I could go alchemist winged marauder this concept I'm working on is a hobgoblin. Instead of a mount taking Magus Trick feat and Floating Disk for the green goblin's glider.

[Belafon]

Probably not.

The weirdness on this is that the alchemist’s bombs don’t actually exist as a weapon until he’s throwing them. It’s a single standard action to draw the components, create the bomb, and throw it. So we need to look at spell combat and spellstrike separately.

Spell Combat is a full-round action. But creating and throwing the bomb is a standard, it doesn’t exist beforehand so you can’t combine the two. Even once you get Fast Bombs, that would be two different full-round actions.

Spellstrike can be used either with spell combat (full-round) or just any time you cast a touch spell (usually a standard action). But you have the same problem - a standard to cast the spell and another standard to create and throw the bomb.

As a GM, I’d allow a player to spellstrike with an alchemist’s bomb as a full-round action. But only that would be the only attack I would allow that round, even with Fast Bombs. I would not allow Spell Combat. To emphasize, that’s what I would allow; strict reading of the action types doesn’t allow that either.

There is one way you could spellstrike with a bomb. If you cast the spell as a swift action (Quickened) then you still have the required standard action available.

[MrCharisma]

So regarding Bombs and Spell-Combat: Once you have the Fast Bombs discovery you can throw Bombs is a full-attack action, and Spell-Combat is a form of full-attack action, so they stack. This would be post level 8 though since that's when you get Fast Bombs.

Reguarding Spellstrike (the actual question): I'm not actually sure. I always assumed you could, but the wording is a bit vague. You could look at the Eldritch Archer archetype as well, but it kinda has the same problem.

[Zwordsman]

I believe not. Wording on the alchemist is why.
It is its own specific standard action to craft and throw a bomb. Now when you get fast bombs it lets you throw multiple bombs as a full round action.
Spell Combat itself is also a full round action. It gives you multiple attacks but it also does not state it is a full attack action. So it can't interact with things that require full attack action choice of full round actions. Fast Bombs does specifiy it works as if a full attack with a ranged weapon.
So strictly speaking, Neither is a full attack action, both are specific full round actions. However, fast bombs notes it works as if a full attack w/ a ranged weapon, so it would work with most full attack things. but spell combat would not work with most full attack things. As it is a full round action, not a full attack action.

I really hate that granular 'each action of its own' (I still dislike the ATtack Action thing about vital strike)
but as a GM i'd let that slide and just have them work together there, since they're both based off the Full Attack choice of full round actions.

Spell Strike however is different. Because the action is casting the spell-and you're allowed to use the weapon you are wielding, it won't work even with fast bombs. Because you only wield the weapon when you use them. Meaning you are not wielding it when you start to cast the spell.

Well. Unless you have the Delayed bombs or the other discoveries that make bombs last longer, and you premake them. Then they would be valid.
I'm not sure the Swift Action spell casting would work either. I'd have to look up action interactions again (Been playing p1,p2,sf,and 5e so mixing now). If swift actions can be taken in the middle of a standard action's action then it would work. But if you swift action the spell you couldn't hold that for the standard action to make the bomb. So you'd have to do the spell during the standarad action- at a poin between creating and the free attack.

So. Spell Strike pretty sure raw nope-due to not wielding the bomb at the time.
Spell Combat, most likely would work once you have fast bombs, but can easily be read (and is probably raw) that they wouldn't work together due to the differences in each abiltiies' wording for Full Round action, instead of stating Full Attack.

Honestly the best way to do this would be to enchant your cards with Conductive as a card magus. Or use a normal ranged weapon with conductieve depending on the wording on that ranged spellstrike.

[willuwontu]

MrCharisma wrote:

So regarding Bombs and Spell-Combat: Once you have the Fast Bombs discovery you can throw Bombs is a full-attack action, and Spell-Combat is a form of full-attack action, so they stack. This would be post level 8 though since that's when you get Fast Bombs.

Fast bombs is not a full-attack action, it is a full round action. Spell combat is also a full round action, therefore as Belafon noted, you cannot do both at once.

As far as spellstrike, they cannot use it with bombs due to the problems Belafon noted above.

[MrCharisma]

I was going off this:

FAST BOMBS F.A.Q. wrote:

Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?

As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

And this:

SPELL COMBAT F.A.Q. wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

Yes.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.

I know they don't directly reference each other, but I read this as allowing them to stack. If you think I'm wrong please enlighten me (I'm fully willing to be proven wrong here, I'm just going with how I read it).

[Belafon]

The reason they don't stack is that the abilities those two FAQs reference (Rapid Shot, TWF, haste, etc.) are things that are some variation of "when taking a full-attack action you may also do X."

Fast Bombs and Spell Combat aren't things that add to your full-attack, they are full-round abilities that are full-attacks. You can only take one full-attack (full-round) action per turn.

Simpler example:

The Gunslinger's Dead Shot deed is a full-round action that functions as a full-attack. A Monk's Flurry of Blows is a full-attack action. You can't use the Dead Shot deed and make a Flurry of Blows in the same round. Because that would require using two full-round actions.

[willuwontu]

MrCharisma wrote:

I was going off this:

FAST BOMBS F.A.Q. wrote:

Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?

As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

And this:

SPELL COMBAT F.A.Q. wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

Yes.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.

I know they don't directly reference each other, but I read this as allowing them to stack. If you think I'm wrong please enlighten me (I'm fully willing to be proven wrong here, I'm just going with how I read it).

Yes, they both allow effects that work on a full-attack to work on them. This is because they have to explicitly call out as doing such since they are not full-attack actions themselves, but instead full round actions.

Fast Bombs wrote:

An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.

Spell Combat wrote:

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

If fast bombs was a full-attack action instead of a full round, a magus would be able to use spell combat with it, but it is not.

[MrCharisma]

willuwontu wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

<stuff>

Yes, they both allow effects that work on a full-attack to work on them. This is because they have to explicitly call out as doing such since they are not full-attack actions themselves, but instead full round actions.

Fast Bombs wrote:

An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.

If fast bombs was a full-attack action instead of a full round, a magus would be able to use spell combat with it, but it is not.

Where I'm not following you is that as far as I can tell the FAQ is saying that Fast Bombs IS a full attack action, due to the last sentence.

Fast Bombs wrote:

An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.

So you're saying: If it isn't a full attack action it doesn't work, but if it is a full attack action it would work.

(I fully agree with that reasoning.)

It says it functions as a full attack action, and there's even an FAQ saying: "Yes it is".

What am I missing?

[MrCharisma]

Belafon wrote:

The reason they don't stack is that the abilities those two FAQs reference (Rapid Shot, TWF, haste, etc.) are things that are some variation of "when taking a full-attack action you may also do X."

I see where you're going with this, but I read it differently. As above, I read Fast Bombs as a full attack action, which (if true) means it would be compatible with (a ranged version of) Spell Combat.

(Also for your example Flurry is a comparable ability, but Dead Shot is fairly different.)

Again not trying to be difficult, I'm seeing your points, but not seeing where Fast Bombs says it's not a full attack (it even specifically calls itself out as being one).

[Belafon]

MrCharisma wrote:

Belafon wrote:

The reason they don't stack is that the abilities those two FAQs reference (Rapid Shot, TWF, haste, etc.) are things that are some variation of "when taking a full-attack action you may also do X."

I see where you're going with this, but I read it differently. As above, I read Fast Bombs as a full attack action, which (if true) means it would be compatible with (a ranged version of) Spell Combat.

Again not trying to be difficult, I'm seeing your points, but not seeing where Fast Bombs says it's not a full attack (it even specifically calls itself out as being one).

Fast Bombs is a full attack. The problem is that Spell Combat is also a full attack. The only way you could stack these is if Spell Combat was worded differently. Something like

If Spell Combat wrote:

When making a full attack the magus can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action...

But it doesn't say that. You may use Spell Combat as a full-attack, not when making a full attack.

It's not an outlandish house rule to allow them to stack, but the published rules don't allow you to do two different things that both count as full-round actions in the same round.

[Belafon]

MrCharisma wrote:

(Also for your example Flurry is a comparable ability, but Dead Shot is fairly different.)

Which is exactly why I picked those two. Dead Shot is a full-round action that includes making rolls "as if she were making a full attack." Flurry of blows is a full-attack action. I don't think anyone would argue that you should be able to do both in one round.

Spell Combat is a full-round action that, per the FAQ, counts as a full-attack. Fast Bombs is a full-attack action. If Dead Shot and Flurry of Blows can't be done in the same round, why should it be possible to do Spell Combat and Fast Bombs in the same round?

[MrCharisma]

Hmmm... I see where you're coming from.

Let me think about it.

(Are there any other "Full Attack Actions" that would be ruled like this? Fast-Bombs, Spell-Combat and Flurry-Of-Blows are the only 3 I can think of off the top of my head.)

[zza ni]

i see why spell combat won't work. but why not spell strike?

all you need to do is cast the spell (touch, not ranged spell though) before hand and hold the charge until you throw the bomb (i agree you can't cast the spell and throw the bomb in the same round without swift action casting.)

spellstrike allow the magus to deliver the spell with a weapon instead of by touch but nothing say he has to decide before making the attack. a magus with a weapon can cast a touch spell and have the hand holding the weapon hold the charge. then later ether attack with the weapon and deliver or drop the weapon and use the hand to deliver the spell.
he can even drop the first weapon and draw a new weapon to deliver the charge with it. hack the card caster do that to deliver a spell with multiple touch charges via multiple cards. (chill touch spell for example)

EDIT : found a FAQ that help point this out:

this bit:

"...A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal...."

[MrCharisma]

The problem with that zza ni is that Spellstrike has to be used with a melee weapon (so bombs don't work) and Harrowed Spellstrike (Card Caster) requires you to invest the spell into a weapon when you cast the spell, which you can't do (without the Delayed Bomb discover) because the bomb doesn't exist until you throw it.

I thought there was a problem with Ranged Spellstrike (either Eldritch Archer or Myrmidarch), but looking at them again I think they work fine.

The bit about missing, dropping weapons and picking them up again is somewhat less relevant to the ranged variants since the spell isn't held like a touch spell would be, but I guess there are probably times when it could happen.

[zza ni]

oh i see.
i thought what the card caster got was the same as the ranged spellstrike.
seem to be a bit different.
well he doesn't have to be a card caster (he ain't making Gambit after all) ;)