Poison use underwater

[Agodeshalf]

So having fun with the poisoner in my group. We had an encounter that was underwater, and we had a bit of rules debate. And I can't seem to find a lot of rules on environmental effects and use of poison. On one hand, the alchemist poisoner casts waterproof as a standard part of his day.

Rule question 1: What are the effect of poison in this case. A poison coated weapon underwater??? Does that really work? I think that the poison would be washed away by the water.

Rule question 2: What effect does waterproof actually have on the application on poison. If a weapon is waterproof, can a "mundane liquid" actually be applied to that weapon? Is the poison a liquid?

The rules for poison just seem vague but maybe I missed a source.

[Meirril]

Pathfinder poisons aren't exactly realistic. Applying poison to an arrow is effective because the arrow will enter the body and stay there. Poison on blades usually requires a piercing weapon and the effectiveness of the poison is questionable. Nobody makes a real poison to knock someone unconscious that gets delivered on a sword. We're dealing with fantasy substances here.

If the person making the poison knows its for underwater use, they should be able to adapt the poison to where it won't be washed away instantly. Blade poison would be more of a paste than a liquid. I'd still say the poison will be lost if it is exposed to open water for more than 10 minutes. Sheathed poisoned weapons should be protected enough to remain poisoned.

The Waterproof spell... I think even the paste poisons would be treated like a mundane liquid. I think that objects protected by this spell would resist having weapon poison applied to them. It would still be fine to use something like a censor to deliver inhaled poison since it goes into an internal reservoir. The same for other poison delivery systems that use internal reservoirs.

[Diego Rossi]

Waterproof wrote:

This spell renders a touched object waterproof for the duration of the spell. The object must be no larger than 10 pounds per caster level. The spell protects the object from any mundane liquids (such as alcohol or oil) but not from magically created liquids.

I "love" vague statements.

You become immune to non-magical acids? Poisons in liquid form?
Being doused in oil is covered, but being immune what entail? It flows away instantly? It doesn't drench you but still enters in contact with the liquid?
What happens to your non-magical liquids (like the water in your waterskin? You can drink? You can swim or float in water?

[avr]

If the poison is an injury poison then it needs to be something the target's bloodstream will take up which means it needs to be water-soluble. Contact poison you have a little more leeway with, but a waterproof injury poison can't work.

[Matthew Downie]

You could use something like Glass Urchin Venom. Since that comes from a sea urchin, it presumably must be pretty water resistant.

[Agodeshalf]

Thanks for the responses. To be clear, the poisoner was not planning on fighting underwater, the poison he was using was black widow poison, and he was applying the poison before and after entering the water.

Are poisons liquid or paste? Are they effected by water? And honestly, I don't think there are any rules per se.

Personally, I think that the spell has the adverse effect of stopping the application of "liquid" poisons to the weapons, as they would be repelled by the spell. A paste I think would work but whether the poison "as a paste" is water soluble or not is again unknowable, unless there is flavor text in the description of the poison. In his case, he was using black widow venom.

The effects of the spell when the target is a creature is problematic. Are "all items" so the sword, the vial of poison, and the poison are all waterproof? Or are just containers?

[Cavall]

Nothing official. At the very least I can imagine a dilution of the poison. -2 to DC save.

I'd personally think -2 to DC for every minute under water until washed away at 1.

But again nothing official I can see.

[Meirril]

Agodeshalf wrote:

The effects of the spell when the target is a creature is problematic. Are "all items" so the sword, the vial of poison, and the poison are all waterproof? Or are just containers?

Everything carried by the target of the spell, until dropped. That is exactly what the spell says.