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This is pretty much how the real world works, too. During some of the recent looting, a nearby ATM was ripped away by a pickup truck and dragged through the street. The Level 3 Rogues that made off with it didn't have 21 hours on site to deal with the ATM's Level 17 lock, but get it back to a secure location and they're likely to have enough time.
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If you're willing/able to invest that kind of time, you might as well try to disassamble the lock to get its formula. Takes even longer, admittedly, but requires only a single check and leaves you with at least 45% of the lock's price worth of raw materials even on a critical fail.
Locks of higher qualities might require multiple successes to unlock, since otherwise even an unskilled burglar could easily crack the lock by attempting the check until they rolled a natural 20
I am pretty sure that this isn't working as intended and that it was meant to use the victory point system that was introduced in the GMG. We won't know until errata or a FAQ eventually hits it.
Personally I think it is easier to just look at it and see "they explicitly state RAI, RAW doesn't match RAI" and make up your own ruling until then. Personally I would never rule RAW over an explicitly stated RAI.
As for lockpicks, personally I would have rather them be destroyed on a crit failure. But that is just me.
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This sounds very realistic to me. Give any half decent locksmith (and a 3rd level Rogue is certainly competent) unlimited time and they can break into anything. It's the 'unlimited time' part that makes this impractical in actual usage.
And in play, it seems perfectly balanced since it will effectively never come up.
Sounds right to me.
This sounds very realistic to me. Give any half decent locksmith (and a 3rd level Rogue is certainly competent) unlimited time and they can break into anything. It's the 'unlimited time' part that makes this impractical in actual usage.
And in play, it seems perfectly balanced since it will effectively never come up.
I do think it is fair to consider that characters will generally be less competent than a trained individual is in the present day. Not only are we working with relatively static technologies that have stayed the same for 50-90 years, but given the pricing of locks in golarion people who aren't super wealthy or already capable thieves generally won't be able to practice like we can (especially in the advent of printing presses and more importantly the internet).
Assuming similar level or greater of complexity, given the astronomical costs and bespoke construction (I would expect that locks costing hundreds or thousands of gp are similar levels of artifice).
Then again people can pick locks with a dagger ;) so might be best to just chalk it up to "is game" like bulk. I don't know if any of my players would be happy if their newly purchased 200gp lock was pickable by near anyone with trained.
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I do think it is fair to consider that characters will generally be less competent than a trained individual is in the present day. Not only are we working with relatively static technologies that have stayed the same for 50-90 years, but given the pricing of locks in golarion people who aren't super wealthy or already capable thieves generally won't be able to practice like we can (especially in the advent of printing presses and more importantly the internet).
This makes a lot of incorrect assumptions about Golarion's tech base and educational level. The printing press exists in Goalrion, and is in decently common use. In a related note, near universal literacy is absolutely a thing, as are schoolhouses even in small villages in Taldor.
Nor have technologies necessarily remained static, they've certainly remained more so than in our own world, but some of that is that magic gets innovated rather than technology per se.
And a competent locksmith could do exactly what I describe thirty or forty years ago before the internet existed.
Assuming similar level or greater of complexity, given the astronomical costs and bespoke construction (I would expect that locks costing hundreds or thousands of gp are similar levels of artifice).
Oh yeah, those are expensive and tricky to make, I'm sure.
Then again people can pick locks with a dagger ;) so might be best to just chalk it up to "is game" like bulk. I don't know if any of my players would be happy if their newly purchased 200gp lock was pickable by near anyone with trained.
If they have at least two days uninterrupted to pick it with no interruptions? That's probably more time and effort than it takes to disassemble the door one way or another.
Also, do the calculations in the OP assume the successes carry over between critical failures? The rules don't really spell this out, but I always assumed breaking your picks meant needing to start over. I'm assuming the superior lock has 6 tumblers that need to be aligned all at once.
And a competent locksmith could do exactly what I describe thirty or forty years ago before the internet existed
We were pretty advanced even back then and locksmiths had training locks as well as access to knowledge regarding the inner workings on a regular basis.
Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.If they have at least two days uninterrupted to pick it with no interruptions? That's probably more time and effort than it takes to disassemble the door one way or another.
For sure, a metal lockbox with an adamantine good quality lock though? (Amusingly I have two players in another game who are constantly setting up theft deterrents mainly for each other, but it has saved them from some of their "friends" they allow into the house)
As a house rule I give the DC adjustments of easy, very easy, incredibly easy for time spent and then use the victory point rule.
This tends to accomplish the same goal but without making it an auto succeed or having me calculate odds ;).
20 minutes per attempt = easy
1 hour per attempt = very easy
1 workday per attempt = incredibly easy
We were pretty advanced even back then and locksmiths had training locks as well as access to knowledge regarding the inner workings on a regular basis.
Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.
But when do they get that training? If these practice locks don't exist and a character isn't required to buy a more expensive lock to "practice" with before moving up proficiency then where does this ability eventually derive from?
But when do they get that training? If these practice locks don't exist and a character isn't required to buy a more expensive lock to "practice" with before moving up proficiency then where does this ability eventually derive from?
We were pretty advanced even back then and locksmiths had training locks as well as access to knowledge regarding the inner workings on a regular basis.
Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.
Further, why would one think master saboteurs and spies wouldn't have had training locks IRL much less in campaign worlds with highly sophisticated and established criminal organizations?
And craft guilds more likely would have samples w/ exposed tumblers (et al) to copy from than blueprints.A trained lockpicker has been trained on locks, one would think, and would likely know the fundamentals of locks too expensive to gain access to. Or if one goes by the natural talent route, that would work for all levels too.
And remember, PCs in this world who are trained to perform can perform with most anything. PCs have some serious training available. :)
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We were pretty advanced even back then and locksmiths had training locks as well as access to knowledge regarding the inner workings on a regular basis.
And? Why wouldn't Golarion work the same in this regard?
Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.
Isn't it? It's the intent that they not be able to do it in the middle of an adventure. I'm not at all clear that it follows that they can't do it when spending downtime.
For sure, a metal lockbox with an adamantine good quality lock though? (Amusingly I have two players in another game who are constantly setting up theft deterrents mainly for each other, but it has saved them from some of their "friends" they allow into the house)
Sure. Even the best lock is pick-able given unlimited time and the right skill set. I see no reason for that to be different in Golarion.
Doing this is also super specialized work requiring either a lot of broken picks or a +10 in Crafting as well as +11 Thievery (with anything less than +10, you're gonna crit fail and destroy your tools multiple times during this process if you try and repair them).
Really, the fact that locksmiths don't need to be absurdly high level even in their area to do their job seems like a plus to me, rather than an issue.
Really, the fact that locksmiths don't need to be absurdly high level even in their area to do their job seems like a plus to me, rather than an issue.
This so much
Isn't it? It's the intent that they not be able to do it in the middle of an adventure. I'm not at all clear that it follows that they can't do it when spending downtime.
"Locks of higher qualities might require multiple successes to unlock, since otherwise even an unskilled burglar could easily crack the lock by attempting the check until they rolled a natural 20."
Intent seems to me that nat 20 spammed success isn't the intended way forwards. But we may disagree on that I guess, they may have meant "but not in downtime".Sure. Even the best lock is pick-able given unlimited time and the right skill set. I see no reason for that to be different in Golarion.
I suppose that we differ in expectations regarding lockpicking. I personally don't believe that I would be able to pick a lock with false gates, glass pins and bearings just by spending time on it without first having seen it taken apart or knowing how it works to some degree. Disc detainers too.
Sure I could just bypass or destroy the lock, and that makes sense / what most people would just do.But I would associate the training level to be what indicates someones skill/capability. Trained, expert, master, legend. I like it to mean something for the character.
Really, the fact that locksmiths don't need to be absurdly high level even in their area to do their job seems like a plus to me, rather than an issue.
Remember that nps in the GMG were allowed to have skills acting as a higher level character.
The guild master is level 8 and has two skills at 25 even though a 21 is ranked as an "extreme" skill by the monster building chart.Or the Surgeon "In medical matters, a surgeon is a 6th-level challenge." As a level 2 NPC.
I suppose that we differ in expectations regarding lockpicking. I personally don't believe that I would be able to pick a lock with false gates, glass pins and bearings just by spending time on it without first having seen it taken apart or knowing how it works to some degree. Disc detainers too.
By Torag's Anvil how people pick locks in long dead ancient civilizations they end up in then? Does pick lock not work in your games if the players encounter a lock type they can't verify they've seen before?
Sorry Chuck I know this has a DC 25 listed right here but I'm sure you dwarf has never been to Germany before so this lock isn't something you can actually pick. Better have Susan's Fighter smash it.
That is something to consider as well. If a character has unlimited time to pick locks, odds are they have unlimited time to break down the door as well and that will be faster.
Technically you are correct you can keep repairing your picks. practically speaking you are likely time limited before somebody notices you playing around with your picks. If you basically have infinite time and the lock is not literally impossible for you to pick then yes you eventually will open it.
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One thing to note though is in pathfinder 2e a 20 is not an automatic success. It raises your level of success by one step. So if you are a low level rogue working on some high level high quality lock it is very likely that no matter how long you have you simply won't succeed. If you can't roll high enough with mods to get at least a failure a nat 20 does not help.
By Torag's Anvil how people pick locks in long dead ancient civilizations they end up in then? Does pick lock not work in your games if the players encounter a lock type they can't verify they've seen before?
Sorry Chuck I know this has a DC 25 listed right here but I'm sure you dwarf has never been to Germany before so this lock isn't something you can actually pick. Better have Susan's Fighter smash it.
Because as times goes on they get better and can succeed on that 25dc through practice and gaining a better knowledge of locks. A npc locksmith or thief will gradually encounter more and more complex locks overcoming them, taking them apart or training with them until they have the requisite tools and skills to pick the more complex locks.
So an expert locksmith npc might be level 2 but treated as level 6 like the surgeon due to their time and experience.
I have already said how it works in my games, victory point system from the gmg with successes required equal to the lock successes. Lowered DC based on time spent picking at -2(20min), -5(1h) and -10(workday) per attempt.
I acknowledge time, but I don't feel like handwaving it "eh they would have rolled enough 20s eventually" is the right way to go developer intent wise either.
The whole, our skill checks increase thing. It is a gameified element but it applies to the whole game, we flirt with this any time we choose a new skill increase that had nothing to do with our actions in game. Or becoming fluent in two languages you have never understood or engaged with because you fought some goblins and a bugbear.
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"Locks of higher qualities might require multiple successes to unlock, since otherwise even an unskilled burglar could easily crack the lock by attempting the check until they rolled a natural 20."
Intent seems to me that nat 20 spammed success isn't the intended way forwards. But we may disagree on that I guess, they may have meant "but not in downtime".
That paragraph, IMO, is acknowledging that picking literally any lock would require only 20 minutes assuming you spend 6 GP on extra lockpicks.
That would be a problem.
The system as it stands requires a vastly larger investment of time and resources...which is exactly what the current version requires.
I suppose that we differ in expectations regarding lockpicking. I personally don't believe that I would be able to pick a lock with false gates, glass pins and bearings just by spending time on it without first having seen it taken apart or knowing how it works to some degree. Disc detainers too.
Sure I could just bypass or destroy the lock, and that makes sense / what most people would just do.
Sure, but by the time you're an Expert in Thievery (or hell, even Trained) you've almost certainly seen all those things. That's a large part of what being Trained in Thievery represents, after all. Your skills might not be up to succeeding at dealing with them, and you may not know this specific lock, but you know the basics of how they work.
By the time you're Trained in something you could make a living doing it professionally. That's what being Trained means.
But I would associate the training level to be what indicates someones skill/capability. Trained, expert, master, legend. I like it to mean something for the character.
I agree that it should mean something, but it does mean quite a lot by the current rules. A true Legend at lockpicking can do what takes an Expert 20 hours in something less than 10 minutes, and probably without breaking a single lockpick. Doing something that takes other people 20 hours in 10 minutes sounds pretty legendary to me.
You could also, for particularly tricky locks, follow the guidelines of Hazards and institute a Proficiency minimum to pick them at all, but those are rare and custom designed masterworks, not 'off the shelf' standard locks, which are what the ones we're talking about from the equipment section are.
Remember that nps in the GMG were allowed to have skills acting as a higher level character.
The guild master is level 8 and has two skills at 25 even though a 21 is ranked as an "extreme" skill by the monster building chart.
Or the Surgeon "In medical matters, a surgeon is a 6th-level challenge." As a level 2 NPC.
Right, but my point is 'random locksmith #3' should probably not be above level 3 or 4 even at lockpicking, and that this rule means that he can still do his job even at that level.
Rich people need to have someone extremely impressive make their super high level locks (not necessarily the person they bought them from, but a high level craftsman was involved), and you definitely need someone exceptional to break into them as part of a heist...but the locksmith they call when their keys get locked in the safe room should not, thematically, need to be the best lockpicking expert in five cities. He's just a guy with a job and proceeds to spend long enough to do it.
Because as times goes on they get better and can succeed on that 25dc through practice and gaining a better knowledge of locks. A npc locksmith or thief will gradually encounter more and more complex locks overcoming them, taking them apart or training with them until they have the requisite tools and skills to pick the more complex locks.By Torag's Anvil how people pick locks in long dead ancient civilizations they end up in then? Does pick lock not work in your games if the players encounter a lock type they can't verify they've seen before?
Sorry Chuck I know this has a DC 25 listed right here but I'm sure you dwarf has never been to Germany before so this lock isn't something you can actually pick. Better have Susan's Fighter smash it.
You mean like say spending 20+ hours working with a lock to get a feel for it and better understand how it works? Also what tools? Didn't know you "needed" better tools to pick higher locks.
So an expert locksmith npc might be level 2 but treated as level 6 like the surgeon due to their time and experience.
I have already said how it works in my games, victory point system from the gmg with successes required equal to the lock successes. Lowered DC based on time spent picking at -2(20min), -5(1h) and -10(workday) per attempt.
I acknowledge time, but I don't feel like handwaving it "eh they would have rolled enough 20s eventually" is the right way to go developer intent wise either.The whole, our skill checks increase thing. It is a gameified element but it applies to the whole game, we flirt with this any time we choose a new skill increase that had nothing to do with our actions in game. Or becoming fluent in two languages you have never understood or engaged with because you fought some goblins and a bugbear.
Right but you can't both Gameify it adn say it just happens but at the same time expect realism in the skill against higher level targets because of lack of practice.
You mean like say spending 20+ hours working with a lock to get a feel for it and better understand how it works? Also what tools? Didn't know you "needed" better tools to pick higher locks.
I was talking about the thematics of how it happens as that is what I was asked to defend? As in the real world people picking locks develop their tools and skills as they realise they need them.
Right but you can't both Gameify it adn say it just happens but at the same time expect realism in the skill against higher level targets because of lack of practice.
My comments have all been in response to people saying that "but in reality any lock can be picked in with infinite time so let anyone pick a lock during downtime and don't roll". And my argument was that "well even with infinite time the game measures our skill with proficiency tiers, if people become more proficient over time in real life by disassembling gradually more complex locks and learning their trade. It isn't something that the game rules account for and by my argument the clearly stated intent in the skill activity/action is to suggest the developers didn't want it to be a simple "roll 20's till it is done" scenario".
My argument has never been for realism, but rather was saying that the arguments for realism aren't exactly realistic either. Learning complex locks and picking without easily accessible guidance could quite possibly take months.
And my argument isn't against people ruling this way in their own games either, it is the suggestion that this is supported by RAW or is somehow the "only logical course of action"
If they wanted the locks gated they could have easily done like many hazards and set a min proficiency rank to disable it. If they didn't do that but did for those things (and others that might be gated) then we have to assume they didn't want a min proficiency rank.
I've said before on other threads that the lack of such gating is one reason the small difference in Prof. does really seem a big deal. It's not a huge bonus between ranks and often other than feats hitting the next tier isn't always super needed.
That's assuming you make it in exactly that many roles.
Locks might have been meant to actually have Min Profiency strange its left out unless the numbers for equipment locks are just standards and in use locks come with these.
That paragraph, IMO, is acknowledging that picking literally any lock would require only 20 minutes assuming you spend 6 GP on extra lockpicks.
That would be a problem.
The system as it stands requires a vastly larger investment of time and resources...which is exactly what the current version requires.
Er...
One lockpick action per turn = 10 per minute. So on average two minutes to roll a 20.
You need six successes to open a superior DC 40 lock. That's 12 minutes of time.
You'll break 19 lockpicks per two minutes or 114 overall which cost 3 SP to replace each..so 342 SP or 34.2 GP.
So the level 17 lock costs 4,500 GP and can be broken into with 12 minutes of work by level 3 rogue with Expert in Thievery if they have <35 GP of replacement lockpicks handy.
By your logic isn't that a problem?
Again, this assumes successes carry over past critical failures. I really don't think that is the case.
Again, this assumes successes carry over past critical failures. I really don't think that is the case.There is zero game text support to that idea, even if it is intended.
Yes, it is representative of a realistic process of having to re-start progress - but representing that reality is not necessary. The keeping of successes could be narrated as representing how it is easier to re-do something you have already done than it is to figure it out for the first time, and it can also just be the result of choosing to prioritize game-play concerns over the representation of reality.
Let's take a look at odds: Let's say we're looking at a character that has an appropriate modifier to succeed on a natural roll of 11 or higher, and needs to accumulate 6 success - but they roll a natural 1 at any point in the process it's time to start over.
The chance of getting all 6 successes over the course of 10 rolls is 37.7%
The chance of getting 1 critical failure over the course of 10 rolls is 40.13%The odds being more in favor of losing all your progress and starting over strongly suggests that isn't the intended reading, since mechanics that work like that are things players will avoid as much as possible as soon as they learn the odds (especially if they learn them the hard way by actually trying them out and ending up getting the bad result).
Plus the most common real-world locks have tumblers or combinations, which after you've gotten the hang of the first bits would be easy to replicate. It's hard to conjecture about magic locks, yet if there's a way through them, one would suppose it'd have similar traits (unless sentient or auto-shuffling or whatever one wants to add, and which could be added with text that's not in the original.)