Basically, as the title reads. I'm looking at future feats for an animal companion. They currently have Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard. But at higher levels I'm looking at Martial Focus (Natural) and Cut from the Air.
Because of shared Teamwork feats it gets a massive bonus from flanking (specifically from Outflank and Pack Flanking and Auspicious Birth[Conjunction]). So, my question is what bonuses apply to this attack? In theory the arrow or whatever is being "flanked" before it strikes me or my animal companion (who is standing next to me). Would this bonus apply? It just says an attack roll.
And an additional question. Does it make any sense to have both bodyguard and cut from the air? or would it be better to retrain bodyguard once the animal companion qualifies for both Martial Focus and Cut from the air?
Edit: Just realized the answer to this question is yes, as cut from the air only applies against ranged attacks.
Whatever bonuses you would apply to an AoO, you apply to Cut From the Air. I have always treated them the same... them being an AoO and the attack made against the projectile.
Assuming you meet the positioning and the threatening requirements of your teamwork feats, then yes, that bonus would apply, as well.
So would the situational +2 for AoO from an Elven Branched Spear.
In other words, it's an AoO.
An arrow is an object, not a crrature, you wouldn't get the Outflank bonus as Outflank specifies "creature".
Generally I agree it's an AoO, so everything that applies to an AoO would count, but the target has to be valid.
Also while the rules for flanking don't specify "creature" (they say "opponent" and "defender"), the idea for flanking is that you get the bonus because your opponent can't divide their attention in both dorections effectively (as can be seem by abilities like ALL AROUND VISION). As a GM I wouldn't give you a flanking binus at all against a projectile. The wording isn't 100% clear RAW, but RAI you definitely shouldn't get it.
An arrow is an object, not a crrature, you wouldn't get the Outflank bonus as Outflank specifies "creature".
Generally I agree it's an AoO, so everything that applies to an AoO would count, but the target has to be valid.
Also while the rules for flanking don't specify "creature" (they say "opponent" and "defender"), the idea for flanking is that you get the bonus because your opponent can't divide their attention in both dorections effectively (as can be seem by abilities like ALL AROUND VISION). As a GM I wouldn't give you a flanking binus at all against a projectile. The wording isn't 100% clear RAW, but RAI you definitely shouldn't get it.
I would agree but it isn't an attack roll against an object. It's an attack roll that is compared to my opponent's attack roll. If they roll badly enough the opposed check could be lower than the AC of an arrow laying on the ground.
This is further exaggerated when you consider smash from the air. Now a boulder becomes just as easy/hard to deflect as a sling bullet or even a creature thrown by the same enemy. Size and composition have no bearing.
That's hilarious.
It is hilarious, but it still doesn't mean you get a flanking bonus.
In fact the "opposed attack roll" thing seems to deny the flanking bonus even if they are using THAT SPELL.
I guess you'd get the flanking bonus if you're flanking the enemy who's shooting at you, but I can't imagine that's gonna come up a lot.
It is hilarious, but it still doesn't mean you get a flanking bonus.
In fact the "opposed attack roll" thing seems to deny the flanking bonus even if they are using THAT SPELL.
I guess you'd get the flanking bonus if you're flanking the enemy who's shooting at you, but I can't imagine that's gonna come up a lot.
This just brings me back around to the original question. What bonuses do I get? What criteria should be used to determine what bonuses apply?
The ability states
As an attack of opportunity, make a melee attack roll at your highest bonus.
So, normally in order to be allowed to make an AoO using a melee attack the target must occupy a square that you threaten. Secondly, it limits the ability to only melee weapons meaning that 99% of the time, the weapon being used doesn't actually threaten the attacker (since the ability can only be used against ranged attacks).
If I'm sitting on a large mount and a medium sized creature provokes an AoO from me by running past. I not only would get the flanking bonus because of the feats listed above, but I would also get a bonus for having higher ground. I would get even more bonuses if I had a bane weapon and the enemy running past was of the appropriate creature type.
The problem is that this melee attack it's calling for is against an undefined target. I'm not making an attack against the attacker's AC. If I were then any sort of miss chance the attacker enjoys would apply against my melee attack as it's part of their defenses. Instead, it's used as a sort of opposed check.
If the target is the attacker then does it mean that for the purposes of this attack I threaten them? This seems unlikely as it just creates more problems than it solves by creating an exploitable loophole.
If the target is the weapon, which square is it treated as occupying? It would have to be a square I'm threatening regardless of size. Which limits it to squares I'm occupying.
Yeah, it's a sort of opposed check. Against an undefined target in an undefined location (it can be vs. a ranged weapon aimed at a target adjacent to you), like it or not, so positioning is hardly going to help.
If you happen to have favored enemy (orc) and the arrow was fired by an orc I might allow it, but it's not clear in the wording of cut from the air that this applies.
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The problem is that this melee attack it's calling for is against an undefined target.
Honestly that's probably the best way to look at it - What bonuses can you get without defining the target?
Weapon Focus? Yes.
Favoured Enemy? No.
You wouldn't get the bonus from flanking, but you would get tue bonus from Haste. You get the idea.
Honestly that's probably the best way to look at it - What bonuses can you get without defining the target?
Weapon Focus? Yes.
Favoured Enemy? No.You wouldn't get the bonus from flanking, but you would get tue bonus from Haste. You get the idea.
I will admit that's probably a fair approach, if unsatisfying.
If you happen to have favored enemy (orc) and the arrow was fired by an orc I might allow it, but it's not clear in the wording of cut from the air that this applies.
It would probably depend on interpretation of Favored Enemy. It gives you a bonus on attacks "against" creatures of the type. Certainly I could see an opposed check like this counting as being "against" the attacker, since it's their attack roll you're opposing.
The flanker must also be able to attack the target.
Therefore if the flanker ALSO had cut from air, I would totally allow flanking bonuses to count when the arrow came between you both.
"Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus."
What if they have paired Opportunists?
It's another feat I'm looking at down the line.
Not a creature nor an enemy. So nothing.
If, however, you both had cut from air, youd both could try to block it. Not that it would count as flanking then unless you could be adjacent and flank.
Basically... play Ratfolk.
I can already do this as a non-ratfolk
Because of shared Teamwork feats it gets a massive bonus from flanking (specifically from Outflank and Pack Flanking and Auspicious Birth[Conjunction]). So, my question is what bonuses apply to this attack? In theory the arrow or whatever is being "flanked" before it strikes me or my animal companion (who is standing next to me). Would this bonus apply? It just says an attack roll.
Only you're not because it isnt an opponent.
So pack flank out flank do nothing.
Then I don't understand your ratfolk comment as it sounds like you're saying it wouldn't work as a ratfolk either.
As far as I recall and I could be wrong but...I'm pretty certain you can't flank objects so I think this is a no-go.
As far as I recall and I could be wrong but...I'm pretty certain you can't flank objects so I think this is a no-go.
Objects also don't normally provoke AoO nor can they normally be attacked via a melee attack.
Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver. Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object’s AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.
The only reason I would even consider applying flanking is that typically when an AoO is triggered with my current setup. My animal companion will always get the flanking bonus because it's considered to be flanking all squares that it threatens that are in melee range of it and the feat calls for a melee attack.
Normally you can't do XX or YY.
In this situation you can do XX because you have an ability that specifically says you can do XX.
In order to do YY you would need an ability that specifically says you can do YY.
You also wouldn't get a flanking bonus for a creature who's immune to flanking.
Normally you can't do XX or YY.
In this situation you can do XX because you have an ability that specifically says you can do XX.
In order to do YY you would need an ability that specifically says you can do YY.
You also wouldn't get a flanking bonus for a creature who's immune to flanking.
True, but that isn't the situation. Its more of. Normally I can do XX when doing YY. I have special ability that lets me do YY against something you can't normally do YY against, and the question is can I still do XX?
Your last statement is self evident. But we aren't dealing with something that is explicitly immune to flanking. It's something you normally can't even make a melee attack against so if it can be flanked or not never comes up.
edit: In any case I feel that i have my answer. The target of the melee attack is undefined and so I would absolutely get any bonuses that are possible to get without defining the target. For the rest it's up to the DM if they feel that they apply or not.