GMing help

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

Hi all, I need a little help with figuring out how to GM. I'm an experienced player and usually GM for my group, I'm really good at setting up side quests and the crunchy part of the game, but my campaigns usually fall apart after about 4 or 5 sessions as they lose focus and get put on permanent hiatus.

any advice yall can offer?

[VoodistMonk]

Play a more direct campaign, so the party is dedicated to one, time-sensitive goal... fewer distractions and less opportunities for losing focus.

Or. Ask them what kind of campaign they want to play. Establish the campaign around their interests, and use what they already want to do to keep them focused.

[avr]

4-5 sessions isn't a lot. I wouldn't have thought that'd be enough for the campaign to lose focus.

Anyway, an idea. Break down the goals into achievable chunks. Rather than looking at saving the world from the Runelords, look at saving Sandpoint from the goblins as the first horizon. And let the first part be over fairly quickly rather than requiring preliminary quests to achieve. Repeat for part 2. Goals that the party can see and reasonably imagine how to do with their current abilities.

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

those are both good ideas. thank you

[VoodistMonk]

I am currently GM'ing the Kingmaker AP, and it is very open for distraction from its sandbox type setting.

I have been blessed with very patient players, as this is my first time GM'ing Pathfinder. I am not a very good GM, but they have stuck with me for about two years now. Sadly, I have not really improved as much as they have because I selfishly spent the first 18 months in an alcoholic haze. So I can't provide you with nearly as much help as I otherwise should be... other than don't waste your players' time being drunk all the time.

I found that I sometimes had/have to be creative in order to take whatever it is that they are sidetracked by, and use their own momentum towards this distraction as a NASA "slingshot maneuver" back in the direction of the main quest at hand. Either by accelerating the time-line of their side quest, yay you achieved "X" and you happen to be in the area of "Y"... which is where you should have been in the first place. Or killing their curiosity in front of them to give them closure on their nonsensical side quest, and having an NPC show up to kindly remind them of the more pressing matters of their kingdom.

I don't know what options are available to you in your campaign, but I figured I would share some of my work-around methods for trying to get the party focused on actual storyline quests instead of side quests.

[Zotpox]

Sit in on other games.

Watch how others handle the transitions between action and plot.

Observing multiple play styles will expand your options.

[Matthew Downie]

There are lots of places you can get Advice for GMing but the best advice is specific to your situation, and we don't have enough information for that.

For example, are you using any prewritten material? Writing an entire campaign? Just writing material for the next session only? A sandbox? A railroad?

Are your players getting bored, and if so why?
It could be:
Dull NPCs / lack of a good villain.
No urgent problems that they can solve.
Boring encounters.
Lack of good visual imagery.
Lack of empowerment.
Etc.

[Quixote]

First and foremost, check out The Angry GM's blog and read it. Every article is useful, often vital.

When you say the game falls apart when the players lose focus, can you elaborate on that a bit? What does that look like at your table? What is actually, physically happening?

[Warped Savant]

How long are your sessions? (Maybe not long enough for people to really get into the game)
How frequent are your sessions? (Maybe too far apart for people to remember what was happening)
How long do you plan on it taking for the rest of the group to feel like their characters have achieved something kind of important? (Maybe they think it will take months to make a difference in the game world)

Have you talked to the rest of the group about why they seem to lose interest? (Maybe too many options, maybe too vague, maybe they don't like the system or jut want to use gaming as an excuse to get together)
Have you talked to the rest of the group about what kind of game they want to play? (Maybe you're running RP-heavy games and they want to murder-hobo their way through it)

No one on here will know what your group is thinking. The best thing to do is to talk to the other people involved to see why they seem to lose interest so quickly.
(Also, self-reflect. I had a GM that seemed to feel that GMing was a chore and would frequently talk about how other adventures would be more fun to run. The GM not being interested in the game guarantees that the rest of the group won't be interested either.)

[Scott Wilhelm]

Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:

Hi all, I need a little help with figuring out how to GM.... my campaigns usually fall apart after about 4 or 5 sessions as they lose focus and get put on permanent hiatus.

any advice yall can offer?

Run campaigns that are 4-5 sessions long, then keep running short sessions.

You seem to making it work for 4-5 sessions, so go with what is working for you, then grow from there.

The effect of an overarching narrative might feel jumpy and not very cohesive, but as long as everybody is having fun, go with it.

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

Warped Savant wrote:

How long are your sessions? (Maybe not long enough for people to really get into the game)

How frequent are your sessions? (Maybe too far apart for people to remember what was happening)
How long do you plan on it taking for the rest of the group to feel like their characters have achieved something kind of important? (Maybe they think it will take months to make a difference in the game world)

Have you talked to the rest of the group about why they seem to lose interest? (Maybe too many options, maybe too vague, maybe they don't like the system or jut want to use gaming as an excuse to get together)
Have you talked to the rest of the group about what kind of game they want to play? (Maybe you're running RP-heavy games and they want to murder-hobo their way through it)

No one on here will know what your group is thinking. The best thing to do is to talk to the other people involved to see why they seem to lose interest so quickly.
(Also, self-reflect. I had a GM that seemed to feel that GMing was a chore and would frequently talk about how other adventures would be more fun to run. The GM not being interested in the game guarantees that the rest of the group won't be interested either.)

3 to 5 hours, once every week or 2, i'm not sure how to answer that one, I have the players seem to feel like theres no forward motion and things kinda stall out as i end up with nothing for them to do, we always have a session zero to talk about expectations.

thank you all for the advice, sorry for being rather vague about details,my play group is only 3 people including myself and while the other two run fantastic campaigns that we all enjoy I seem to be the odd one out as i cant seem to keep a game going past the first few sessions. my players say they love the first few sessions though, so if i can figure out how to keep the story going things would be great. thanks again all

[Quixote]

Could you give us an example? What happened last time?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:

...the players seem to feel like theres no forward motion and things kinda stall out as i end up with nothing for them to do...

Why is it up to YOU to give them things to do? I'm not trying to be negative, or snotty, or otherwise throw shade on anyone, I'm honestly asking why your players feel like this is specifically your job.

I ask because if you, as GM, are setting a precedent that you're going to hand your players every next step in the campaign, then something happens where you can't think of that next step, your games will stall every time. If, however, you run a game that provides your players plenty of clues to next steps and they're just not taking them, then throwing the onus back on you for whatever reason, that could just be resolved by talking to them.

You say every game has a Session 0 to discuss expectations. What do those discussions look like? Do your players give an indication that they want you to run a specific type of game? If so, are you living up to that?

My suggestion would honestly be to flip the script; tell your players to come up with their own reasons to keep going.

Say you plan out the first 4 sessions meticulously. You come up with a cool dungeon, interesting encounters, the hint of a big boss in session 0, and so on. Then you get through the end of session 4 and your players are vibing an attitude of "cool... what's next?" you sit back and announce "ok, so that's the world I've created and this was your first taste: where do you want to go next?"

Now it's on your players to tell YOU what THEY want. Say one guy wants more dungeon, the other wants to become a god. Well, ask them what their characters are going to DO about those goals. For the dungeon hacker that's easy: search around the dungeon they've been in the first 4 sessions, see if there's any hidden passages they missed, and then barring that go ask around for clues to other dungeons.

For the one that wants to be a god they might be at a loss. There's no RAW mechanics for this. He might start by asking you, the GM, a bunch of questions. You can simply respond by pointing him in the direction of some resource his character needs, like a church contact, a prophecy, a rare artifact, and so on. Then the player has to use skills and abilities to track down info on this resource. The entire campaign could turn from session 5 onward to his final goal.

The point is: you're not there just to entertain your players. You take the things they want, their characters want, and put them in the game world. At that point you create conflict that keeps the players from instantly achieving everything they want. Finally, you reveal to them the consequences of their actions in obtaining the rewards they sought, which may in turn lead to future conflicts.

For example:

Say the players each run 2 PCs each. The 4 PCs have assembled in a town in Session 1 for a local festival. In the middle of a major festival event, monsters suddenly appear in the streets! Session 1 closes with the PCs driving out the monsters.

Session 2 starts off with the consequence of the PCs' actions. They are regarded as heroes by the small settlement they're in! Some world-building encounters happen, helping the players get to know the settlement and the hinterlands. However a couple of these end with conflicts; a young man's mother doesn't approve of his courting one of the PCs and so she gives the PC a piece of her mind; the characters are invited out to the woods to hunt a legendary boa constrictor (CR 2 Animal) but this also means the PCs have to fight the creature without the noble they're with being harmed.

As these minor incidents wrap up the PCs are approached by an elderly maid working at the Tarnished Lizard, a local tavern. They are told of a missing barkeep and the possible involvement of a woman of scandalous birth. The barkeep, a former adventurer and brother to the scandalous woman, mysteriously disappeared last night and his room was disheveled. The old woman even produces a note that suggests the barkeep's sister's involvement.

Session 3 begins with the PCs investigating the old ceramicsworks where the scandalous sister may be hiding out. As the characters arrive they encounter a couple monsters and the corrupt sister holding her brother hostage. The PCs rescue the brother, defeat the sister, and in the process discover that the sister was coerced into this by something dwelling in a dungeon below.

Session 4 finds the PCs hacking the dungeon under the ceramicsworks, finding several evil foes and even a very minor demon. Between this and the rescued barkeep the PCs begin to piece together a larger plot unfolding. The humanoids that attacked the festival and have been in several fights now are massing to assault the town. They are gathering north of the settlement and if not stopped will likely grind the town to ash!

Finally session five sees the party heading out to the nearby humanoid lair. Its a daunting task but the PCs have to get to the humanoid chieftain. If they can defeat him, chances are the rest of the monsters will disband and give up their plans. Through dangerous battles the party fights their way to victory and saves the town!

Huzzah!

… and then you tell them "And that's what I had planned. Now what do your characters want to do?" Hopefully the players have a few ideas, things they want to do to follow up on what just happened. Check on the wicked sister of the barkeep - is she still in jail? Look in on the barkeep and see if, when they were an adventurer they ever saw stuff like this. Go see that noble they went hunting with. Follow the tracks of some of the fleeing humanoids to see if they're REALLY gone.

If the players are REALLY clever they'll realize that demons are generally summoned to the Material Plane. How did the one they defeated get here? Why was it here? Why is there a weird, magical dungeon beneath the ceramicsworks? All of the above are good questions...

… for the PLAYERS to ask the GM.

Once the players are asking questions, you answer them. As you do you can use your answers to set up more conflicts:

1. Is the wicked sister still in jail? Yes, however, the guards mention that she mutters all the time about how her sins are haunting her... literally.

2. Are the humanoids REALLY gone? While you stall for time you quickly look over the hinterlands map of the small town, find some 2d wilderness map pics online and make a few encounters. The PCs fight a few easy battles and determine that yes, the humanoids are fleeing well away from the town and want nothing to do with the heroes anymore. However while doing so they also come across a random wilderness encounter with a witch's hut that appears to have been abandoned in a hurry!

3. Why is there a dungeon under the ceramicsworks? The PCs go on an extended info gathering session, learning some of the backstory you made up for the business. Turns out the dungeon is rumored to have been part of a literal and figurative underground cult shrine site. There may have even been deeper levels the PCs didn't find...

So now all three questions offer potential avenues for the PCs to adventure through. Why is the wicked sister muttering about sins? Why did a witch abandon her home in the woods? Is there a deeper level to the ceramicsworks dungeon?

The players ask questions, you answer, they investigate... they fight more evil and get more loot. If you've done your job well, there's more questions at the end of their investigation that need answering. Then... the players ask questions, you answer, they investigate... and so on.

This method can work for linear as well as sandbox style games. Essentially all you're doing is putting the players in charge of declaring what they're interested in, and you're reacting.

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

Thank you for the meticulous answer Mark. you've given me a lot to think about.

[yukongil]

I find it helps to have a vague framework of a metaplot for a game (ie A Vampire King is being resurrected) and build sessions/chapters around that. Everything should tie into that in some fashion, even if only barely (a caravan has gone missing and the party is hired to find it, turns out it was carrying some McGuffin needed to rez the Vamp, even if the group doesn't find that out for awhile), then listen to the players as they talk about the adventure and run with some of their ideas and thoughts about what is happening. This does several things; first, it takes all of the creative burden off of you, who already has to plan everything else and second, it makes them feel all Sherlock-y when it seems like they've guessed how or why something happened.

This should help keep the momentum going as you build off of what initially seem like "side-quests" and the like, but all actually tie into the main plot.