I was looking at templates from both pathfinder and 3.5e (almost the same system with easy conversion) and found some entries with "increase HD size by one category." This made me think, are there HD sizes above d12 and if so, what are they? Would these HD increases apply to class HD or only racial unless specified? Do any monsters exist in the phb. that have HD larger than d12 in any edition? If this is true, this can open up to interesting combinations and give bosses high health without overloading their Con or HD pool (I want a tough fight but not ridiculous saves and ability DCs).
Official sources are preferred and 3pp books are fine if Pazio/Wizards of the Coast approved.
At least for weapons, D12 is considered 2d6 and increases to 3d6. I've never come across anything that says increase HD before.
I assume the OP is talking a out converting 3.5 to PF. Wizards went from d4 to d6, etc etc.
And no nothing I know of has more than d12HD in PF, but as SorrySleeping pointed out you'd probably use the same progression as weapons. 1d12 would be the same as 2d6, and the next one up would be 2d8.
If you're the GM you don't really need to follow any of these rules though, you can just give your monster +50HP and be done with it. I guess if this kind of thing helps the go nuts.
I assume the OP is talking a out converting 3.5 to PF. Wizards went from d4 to d6, etc etc.
And no nothing I know of has more than d12HD in PF, but as SorrySleeping pointed out you'd probably use the same progression as weapons. 1d12 would be the same as 2d6, and the next one up would be 2d8.
If you're the GM you don't really need to follow any of these rules though, you can just give your monster +50HP and be done with it. I guess if this kind of thing helps the go nuts.
The reason I am asking is that official rulebooks make balancing much easier. Still does not stop me from making a CR4 monster the equivalent of CR way too much (60+ if I remember correctly) because of loopholes. Making gods is fun but having a fair challenge is more so.
Fair enough.
Well if you're trying to keep it balanced then increasing the creature's HD by 1 step usually increases it by 1hp per hit die. Obviously that's not perfect, but it gives you an easy guide to work with.
If you want a fight to go longer you can do things like reduce it's offensive traits and double it's HP. I think there are some guidelines in the GM's guide (though I'll admit it's been a long time since I read it).
I was looking at templates from both pathfinder and 3.5e (almost the same system with easy conversion) and found some entries with "increase HD size by one category." This made me think, are there HD sizes above d12 and if so, what are they? Would these HD increases apply to class HD or only racial unless specified? Do any monsters exist in the phb. that have HD larger than d12 in any edition? If this is true, this can open up to interesting combinations and give bosses high health without overloading their Con or HD pool (I want a tough fight but not ridiculous saves and ability DCs).
Official sources are preferred and 3pp books are fine if Pazio/Wizards of the Coast approved.
There are dice that are larger than d12, but I haven't seen them used in any official source material. The next logical size up from the d12 would be the d14. The problem with going from d12 to 3d6 is that it is a substantial deviation. Even with a d12 you can roll a 1, with 3d6 the minimum is now 3. It also screws with the averages because you've raised the floor. A 10 HD creature that uses a d12 would have would have 65hp on average. Increasing it to a d14 would make it have an average of 75hp. That same creature using 3d6 instead would suddenly have 105hp. Meaning it gained 40hp instead of 10 from HD alone.
In general I would just continue the normal progression d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->d14->d16->d18->d20 etc.
In Pathfinder, +1 CR roughly equates +10% HP (see Bestiary table 1-1). Usually templates come with a HP increase to cover that, but not all do.
I'd see increasing HD size as yet another way to improve HP - it's just a tool. Your players will never notice when you replace this tool by a similar one (+2 Con, Toughness, or said 10% increase). And it's the gaming experience that matters, after all.
So what happens when a player when I give them a template that increases there HD above the d12. In my campaign, I hand them out as part of character arcs. One character discovered portions of memories from her past lives fighting Apophis in a never-ending cycle of reincarnation. This allowed her to tap into her lost magic and the energy strengthened her body. She will also later find that her father is the Zodiac Capricorn which I will probably award some sort of boost to her spells along the line of the sacred geometry feat as a free action X times per day (most people in the party are demigods of Greek/Egyptian/Sumerian pantheon in a world where most mythologies exist in some fashion).
I know this can unbalance the game which is why I am trying to find the official rules to try keeping to the system as much as possible.
Can you link those templates? Because I don't recall ever seeing one, and often the wording contains clues.
Can you link those templates? Because I don't recall ever seeing one, and often the wording contains clues.
So the templates that state this from what I can find in my bookmarks (there may be others I missed) are all 3pp but follow 3.5e guidelines for templates and are relatively balanced. Here are a few examples.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Evolved,_Variant_(3.5e_Template)
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Advanced_Mind_(3.5e_Template)
Most of the others limit the HD increase to d12s or say the creature gets a +2 bonus to hp if already at a d12 HD.
3pp rules can do whatever they want, and i'm pretty sure they have their own forums. we don't usually deal with them here this is for official PF1e rulesCan you link those templates? Because I don't recall ever seeing one, and often the wording contains clues.So the templates that state this from what I can find in my bookmarks (there may be others I missed) are all 3pp but follow 3.5e guidelines for templates and are relatively balanced. Here are a few examples.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Evolved,_Variant_(3.5e_Template)
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Advanced_Mind_(3.5e_Template)Most of the others limit the HD increase to d12s or say the creature gets a +2 bonus to hp if already at a d12 HD.
I can't find the one I found on an official site but it says "increase hit dice by one size" and that is it. Anyhow, if there is no official ruling, what is the best way to handle this?
I would say do what others suggested, use the weapon damage chart for size increase. So d12 is roughly 2d6, increasing it to the next step goes to 3d6.
You could do it that way, but then going beyond a d12 gives a larger increase than the previous ones.
Progression:
1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6
If we take the average roll for each we get:
2.5 -> 3.5 -> 4.5 -> 5.5 -> 6.5 -> 10.5 -> 14 -> 21
Then if we look at what those increases actually are we get:
+1 +1 +1 +1 +4 +3.5 +7
You may notice a big difference there, where the value of an increase in hit dice is much higher than it was for the increases before it. That's the point where you go from 1d12 to 3d6. If you're trying to give mire HP to high hit dice creatures/classes then great, but if that isn't your goal then ... well then you're giving them more without meaning to.
The simplest solution is just add a static +1HP per hit die for the creature for every step above d12 that you give them (eg. If a creature has d12hp/level and you want to increase it's HP, give it Toughness. Want to give it more still, give it Toughness again).
Anyhow, if there is no official ruling, what is the best way to handle this?
Well, the esiest way is to simply not use them - there are plenty of templates, do you really need to use some third party ones written for a different game? I don't really see handing out templates with +4 or even +6 level adjustment as story rewards as sensible. And said level advancement is a) done by a player, as those two are not published templates, and b) balanced for 3.5, which might not make that advancement correctly balanced for Pathfinder.
If you do want to use them, just replace the HD increasement with +1 HP per level. When using average HP (which is what's done for monsters), increasing HD one step, and granting +1 HP per level/HD, has the exact same result. PC's would actually loose out 1 HP due to the maxed first HD (when the changes are applied retroactively), but that's obviously negligible. Honestly, altering HD is a pretty stupid mechanic, unless there were things in 3.5 that interacted with HD size.
I can't find the one I found on an official site but it says "increase hit dice by one size" and that is it.
With "official site", do you perchance mean d20pfsrd.com? If yes, that's in no way an official site. It is full of third party stuff, and is also known to often change, omit, or add text without indication. The only official site is aonprd.com.
Anyhow, if there is no official ruling, what is the best way to handle this?Well, the esiest way is to simply not use them - there are plenty of templates, do you really need to use some third party ones written for a different game? I don't really see handing out templates with +4 or even +6 level adjustment as story rewards as sensible. And said level advancement is a) done by a player, as those two are not published templates, and b) balanced for 3.5, which might not make that advancement correctly balanced for Pathfinder.
If you do want to use them, just replace the HD increasement with +1 HP per level. When using average HP (which is what's done for monsters), increasing HD one step, and granting +1 HP per level/HD, has the exact same result. PC's would actually loose out 1 HP due to the maxed first HD (when the changes are applied retroactively), but that's obviously negligible. Honestly, altering HD is a pretty stupid mechanic, unless there were things in 3.5 that interacted with HD size.
I can't find the one I found on an official site but it says "increase hit dice by one size" and that is it.With "official site", do you perchance mean d20pfsrd.com? If yes, that's in no way an official site. It is full of third party stuff, and is also known to often change, omit, or add text without indication. The only official site is aonprd.com.
Thanks for the advice and yes I was using d20pfsrd thinking it was an official site. As for the story reward templates, the largest I use without the player using up resources and going through a time-consuming ritual is a +2. I will also use Archives of Nethys way more. Thank you for pointing this out.
I guess this answers my questions and sorry this devolved into homebrew advice.