The main question is in the subject line.
It's already been established on the boards that "grapple" is a weapon (as described in Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions of those.) I've also been through the threads where it's been decided that boosting Unarmed Strike does nothing to help grappling because you aren't using them in the attempt.
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple...
The language that points out grapples as something that would get increased through a boost to unarmed strike kind of implies that, contrary to popular belief, it should add to it. That's not the point of this thread though.
My question revolves around the assumption that Weapon Master (Grapple) is a legal choice for Fighters:
1. In regards to class features and Advanced Weapon Training, when would one be considered "wielding" a grapple?
2. Is Mirror Move somehow completely useless, or would it be a good argument to boost CMD as the AC when you are attacked by a grapple?
3. Can one even confirm a critical hit grapple?
I feel lost in how this all interacts.
1. "Grapple" isn't a weapon in a weapon group. So it can't be picked as something for advanced weapon training to apply to. Just because something is a weapon it doesn't mean that it is a weapon in a weapon group. "Ray" is another example of a "weapon" that is like this. It's explicitly an eligible choice for weapon focus but it isn't a weapon that is part of a weapon group.
There are weapons that can be used to initiate a grapple (eg. Mancatcher). AWT would apply to a mancatcher and would subsequently add to your combat maneuver check to perform grapple checks with it.
2. I don't understand what you're asking. It causes you to temporarily gain the benefits of a combat feat a nearby enemy is using. Does the enemy have improved grapple? If they do and you meet the pre-reqs for improved grapple then you would gain the benefits of improved grapple which provides an applicable +2 to your CMD.
3. Grapple checks are not attacks they are combat maneuvers and therefore can not crit. That being said, if a creature has grab they can make a normal attack and if that attack hits they can initiate a grapple for free. Such a creature can crit on the attack, but they can not crit on the free grapple. In fact if they roll a nat 20 and their total result fails to exceed to the target's CMD they still fail to grapple the target (though I've seen a DM allow a nat 20 to be an auto-success on a combat maneuver so the player wouldn't feel discouraged).
1. "Grapple" isn't a weapon in a weapon group. So it can't be picked as something for advanced weapon training to apply to. Just because something is a weapon it doesn't mean that it is a weapon in a weapon group. "Ray" is another example of a "weapon" that is like this. It's explicitly an eligible choice for weapon focus but it isn't a weapon that is part of a weapon group.
There are weapons that can be used to initiate a grapple (eg. Mancatcher). AWT would apply to a mancatcher and would subsequently add to your combat maneuver check to perform grapple checks with it.
2. I don't understand what you're asking. It causes you to temporarily gain the benefits of a combat feat a nearby enemy is using. Does the enemy have improved grapple? If they do and you meet the pre-reqs for improved grapple then you would gain the benefits of improved grapple which provides an applicable +2 to your CMD.
3. Grapple checks are not attacks they are combat maneuvers and therefore can not crit. That being said, if a creature has grab they can make a normal attack and if that attack hits they can initiate a grapple for free. Such a creature can crit on the attack, but they can not crit on the free grapple. In fact if they roll a nat 20 and their total result fails to exceed to the target's CMD they still fail to grapple the target.
I'm referring to the Weapon Master archetype for the Fighter who has different rules for Weapon Training. They don't choose a weapon group. It functions under their selected weapon only.
The weapon master must select a single type of weapon (such as longsword or shortbow). All of his abilities apply to that weapon type.
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be compatible with Grapple, as that is a legal choice for Weapon Focus, right?
I think for #2 we are just talking about different abilities. It grants you an insight bonus to AC when attacked by the chosen weapon.
That's fair enough on #3.
I'm just trying to get to the point where I can make Fighter abilities mesh with Grapple for a wrestler I'm trying to play.
I'm referring to the Weapon Master archetype for the Fighter who has different rules for Weapon Training. They don't choose a weapon group. It functions under their selected weapon only.
ah, ok sorry about that. I was thrown off because so much of the wording is similar.
Looking at the archechetype while grapple is a valid option. Some of the abilities wouldn't function because it can't be "wielded".
Weapon Guard, Reliable Strike, Deadly Critical, Critical Specialist, and unstoppable strike wouldn't do anything because they modify aspects that simply don't exist when it comes to grappling.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be compatible with Grapple, as that is a legal choice for Weapon Focus, right?At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Yep, it's one of the few abilities that would still work. You would get the bonus to grapple attempts and if you choose to deal damage via grapple then you would get the damage part as well.
I think for #2 we are just talking about different abilities. It grants you an insight bonus to AC when attacked by the chosen weapon.
Yep, I thought you were asking about the feat Mirror Move. Mirror move is one of the few other abilities of the archetype that would apply. This is because any miscellaneous bonuses that apply to your AC also apply to your CMD.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
I apologize for the confusion.
Thanks for the breakdown, you two.
So, our current answer is "Yes, it is legal. Some features, however would do nothing." That makes me apprehensive to go down this route, as tempting as Weapon Training for grapple is.
I'm planning on talking to my GM about this over the next few days. I just wanted to make a masked wrestler fighter. I'm fairly certain that choosing the much more obviously legal Unarmed Strike wouldn't really help here, thanks to unarmed strikes not helping in grapple maneuvers, right?
I appreciate the help.
Thanks for the breakdown, you two.
So, our current answer is "Yes, it is legal. Some features, however would do nothing." That makes me apprehensive to go down this route, as tempting as Weapon Training for grapple is.
I'm planning on talking to my GM about this over the next few days. I just wanted to make a masked wrestler fighter. I'm fairly certain that choosing the much more obviously legal Unarmed Strike wouldn't really help here, thanks to unarmed strikes not helping in grapple maneuvers, right?
I appreciate the help.
I'd recommend unarmed fighter instead unless you're looking for some very specific advanced weapon training interaction.
Just to back up scott
Grapple literally anything: Tetori
Grapple but be able to swap to something else on the fly: Brawler
Grapple into pin into coup de grace: Shifter
Grapple plus chaining maneuvers: Unarmed fighter.
You can make some devastating Grappling characters without weapon master. How do you want your character to work? What does winning look like for your grappler?
My vision for this character is to be an over-the-top "WWE style" wrestler. Someone who is suplex slamming, sleeper holding, tossing fools around. It is also going to be ran in a campaign that will have us squaring off against a considerable amount of dragons. So there is also a need for pretty big CMB & CMD numbers.
Just to back up scott
Grapple literally anything: Tetori
Grapple but be able to swap to something else on the fly: Brawler
Grapple into pin into coup de grace: Shifter
Grapple plus chaining maneuvers: Unarmed fighter.
I particularly don't want to go down the Tetori monk route. I've seen it suggested a ton around here, and I won't deny that it is good. I just want to see how strong of a grappler that I can make outside of it. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with FoM though...
My hope with the Weapon Training interactions was to gain that as an additional bonus to CMD (to hold the grapples) through Combat Maneuver Defense (EX) Advanced Weapon Training, and the ability to gain an additional enhancement bonus to grapples through Warrior Spirit (Su).
I'm open to the idea of changing classes, but I'd like to see how far the Fighter can go for this. I guess since we're already here, I'm aware of the following sources of increases to grappling - before anyone makes suggestions.
Greater Grapple: +2 CMB
Celestial Obedience (Falayna): +4 CMB and CMD
Human (Giant Ancestry): +1 CMB
Trait (Bred for War): +1 CMB
Thorny Violet Ioun Stone: +2 CMB
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2 CMB
Human FCB: +LV CMD
Then i'd really consider looking at unarmed fighter, which operates under a "grapple then trip/disarm/dirty trick"
It lets you use brawling light armor as well, still allows access to weapon training (but it locks you into the monk/natural groups)
Weapon master is meh for grappling as so much of it focuses on critical hits, which is not really a thing grapplers do.
My vision for this character is to be an over-the-top "WWE style" wrestler. Someone who is suplex slamming, sleeper holding, tossing fools around. It is also going to be ran in a campaign that will have us squaring off against a considerable amount of dragons. So there is also a need for pretty big CMB & CMD numbers.
if you're sticking with fighter then I agree that unarmed fighter is probably your best option. It lets you pick up grabbing style for free which would allow you to use a dan bong without penalty. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to pick up Grabbing Master without switching over to brawler or monk. Of course that only matters if you were planning on grappling multiple opponents at the same time.
You could take Racial heritage (Serpent Folk) so that you qualify for the feat Final Embrace. This gives you both grab and constrict. Having grab would make it so that it so that weapon training will apply to grapple checks for you so long as you're using a weapon that weapon training applies to, unarmed strike or monk weapons in the case of unarmed fighter (dan bong is a monk weapon btw). Since you're using the weapon to perform the combat maneuver, the combat maneuver gains any bonuses to attack that the weapon does. Grab also gives a +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks.
Oh, and since you want to grapple dragons. You'll want a belt of impossible action to get around the size limitations on grab and constrict. Sorry, I just realized it only applies to combat maneuvers so that may not be helpful.
Then i'd really consider looking at unarmed fighter, which operates under a "grapple then trip/disarm/dirty trick"
It lets you use brawling light armor as well, still allows access to weapon training (but it locks you into the monk/natural groups)
Weapon master is meh for grappling as so much of it focuses on critical hits, which is not really a thing grapplers do.
Thanks for the tip. I read that, and seeing how you still get access to weapon training, I bet I can make that work. It is a bummer to lose some of the bonus feats, but I'll look into the additional combat maneuvers.
if you're sticking with fighter then I agree that unarmed fighter is probably your best option. It lets you pick up grabbing style for free which would allow you to use a dan bong without penalty. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to pick up Grabbing Master without switching over to brawler or monk. Of course that only matters if you were planning on grappling multiple opponents at the same time.
You could take Racial heritage (Serpent Folk) so that you qualify for the feat Final Embrace. This gives you both grab and constrict. Having grab would make it so that it so that weapon training will apply to grapple checks for you so long as you're using a weapon that weapon training applies to, unarmed strike or monk weapons in the case of unarmed fighter (dan bong is a monk weapon btw). Since you're using the weapon to perform the combat maneuver, the combat maneuver gains any bonuses to attack that the weapon does. Grab also gives a +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks.
Oh, and since you want to grapple dragons. You'll want a belt of impossible action to get around the size limitations on grab and constrict. Sorry, I just realized it only applies to combat maneuvers so that may not be helpful.
What even is a Dan Bong? I know it's some kind of stick, but how in the world does it help someone grapple?
I'm enticed by the Racial Heritage -> Final Embrace line. Would one still get to add the Unarmed Strike bonuses against a target that is too large to use Grab? If so, then that's definitely the route I want to take there.
Seriously, thanks again for the help.
You could take Racial heritage (Serpent Folk) so that you qualify for the feat Final Embrace. This gives you both grab and constrict. Having grab would make it so that it so that weapon training will apply to grapple checks for you so long as you're using a weapon that weapon training applies to, unarmed strike or monk weapons in the case of unarmed fighter (dan bong is a monk weapon btw). Since you're using the weapon to perform the combat maneuver, the combat maneuver gains any bonuses to attack that the weapon does. Grab also gives a +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks.
Sadly, after some poking around on this option, serpentfolk isn't a legal choice for Racial Heritage. It's gotta be a humanoid race, which unfortunately doesn't include monstrous humanoids. That definitely stings.
That does make me want to give a deeper look on the tetori. Gaining grab just feels like it opens up a lot of options. The main one being gaining weapon enhancement bonuses onto grapples.
That sounds like you don't exactly want a grappler, but rather an unarmed melee character that uses a variety of Combat Maneuvers: Bull Rushing, Tripping, Repositioning, and Grappling for a start.
I think you're right about the fact that I am going to want to incorporate more of the combat maneuvers into the fighting style. I feel like grappling is a solid base, though. There are also some feats that give you new options with grappling like: Whirling Hold, Sleeper Hold, Body Shield, the Savage Slam feats, and Neckbreaker.
Nice list of bonuses, you sure did your homework.
Sadly, after some poking around on this option, serpentfolk isn't a legal choice for Racial Heritage. It's gotta be a humanoid race, which unfortunately doesn't include monstrous humanoids. That definitely stings.
oops, yeah. I was getting them confused with Nagaji which are humanoid.
I suppose you could take Racial Heritage[Ogre] -> Ogre Crush. It would give you constrict (Sure you have to have a 25 str and be large, but these are things you'll want anyway), though I think it would be a DM call if it would qualify you for Final Embrace. Since you're getting constrict via a racial feat. Probably doesn't count as a "racial ability" by RAW.
Sadly, after some poking around on this option, serpentfolk isn't a legal choice for Racial Heritage. It's gotta be a humanoid race, which unfortunately doesn't include monstrous humanoids. That definitely stings.oops, yeah. I was getting them confused with Nagaji which are humanoid.
I suppose you could take Racial Heritage[Ogre] -> Ogre Crush. It would give you constrict (Sure you have to have a 25 str and be large, but these are things you'll want anyway), though I think it would be a DM call if it would qualify you for Final Embrace. Since you're getting constrict via a racial feat. Probably doesn't count as a "racial ability" by RAW.
I'm just going to scrap that idea. The investment just seems like too much at this point. My DM ruled that I can add weapon bonuses from unarmed strikes to grapple attempts, as he agreed that they are "weapons suitable for grappling." So, my crucial need for grab has been lifted.
Attempting to diversify what this character can do, I'm starting to look at Dirty Trick and Tripping as secondary & tertiary options. I'm thinking of shifting off Unarmed Fighter in exchange for Lore Warden for that generalized +X CMB and CMD. It might make things easier.
I don't see a real problem with this. The Fighter Weapon Training Class Ability can only be applied to lists of weapons in certain weapon groups, and neither Combat Maneuver nor Grapple are on any of those lists. But Weapon Training for the Weapon Master Archetype is not the same Ability as the Weapon Master Fighter Class Ability.Weapon Training (Ex)
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Combat maneuvers are not weapons. Combat Maneuvers are performed with weapons.
What this means is, if the combat maneuver can be performed with the Weapon Master's chosen weapon, all the bonuses that would apply to his attacks with his chosen weapon will apply to the combat maneuver.