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Gabuman wrote:

Sadly, after some poking around on this option, serpentfolk isn't a legal choice for Racial Heritage. It's gotta be a humanoid race, which unfortunately doesn't include monstrous humanoids. That definitely stings.

oops, yeah. I was getting them confused with Nagaji which are humanoid.

I suppose you could take Racial Heritage[Ogre] -> Ogre Crush. It would give you constrict (Sure you have to have a 25 str and be large, but these are things you'll want anyway), though I think it would be a DM call if it would qualify you for Final Embrace. Since you're getting constrict via a racial feat. Probably doesn't count as a "racial ability" by RAW.

I'm just going to scrap that idea. The investment just seems like too much at this point. My DM ruled that I can add weapon bonuses from unarmed strikes to grapple attempts, as he agreed that they are "weapons suitable for grappling." So, my crucial need for grab has been lifted.

Attempting to diversify what this character can do, I'm starting to look at Dirty Trick and Tripping as secondary & tertiary options. I'm thinking of shifting off Unarmed Fighter in exchange for Lore Warden for that generalized +X CMB and CMD. It might make things easier.

You could take Racial heritage (Serpent Folk) so that you qualify for the feat Final Embrace. This gives you both grab and constrict. Having grab would make it so that it so that weapon training will apply to grapple checks for you so long as you're using a weapon that weapon training applies to, unarmed strike or monk weapons in the case of unarmed fighter (dan bong is a monk weapon btw). Since you're using the weapon to perform the combat maneuver, the combat maneuver gains any bonuses to attack that the weapon does. Grab also gives a +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks.

Sadly, after some poking around on this option, serpentfolk isn't a legal choice for Racial Heritage. It's gotta be a humanoid race, which unfortunately doesn't include monstrous humanoids. That definitely stings.

That does make me want to give a deeper look on the tetori. Gaining grab just feels like it opens up a lot of options. The main one being gaining weapon enhancement bonuses onto grapples.

That sounds like you don't exactly want a grappler, but rather an unarmed melee character that uses a variety of Combat Maneuvers: Bull Rushing, Tripping, Repositioning, and Grappling for a start.

I think you're right about the fact that I am going to want to incorporate more of the combat maneuvers into the fighting style. I feel like grappling is a solid base, though. There are also some feats that give you new options with grappling like: Whirling Hold, Sleeper Hold, Body Shield, the Savage Slam feats, and Neckbreaker.

Nice list of bonuses, you sure did your homework.

Then i'd really consider looking at unarmed fighter, which operates under a "grapple then trip/disarm/dirty trick"

It lets you use brawling light armor as well, still allows access to weapon training (but it locks you into the monk/natural groups)

Weapon master is meh for grappling as so much of it focuses on critical hits, which is not really a thing grapplers do.

Thanks for the tip. I read that, and seeing how you still get access to weapon training, I bet I can make that work. It is a bummer to lose some of the bonus feats, but I'll look into the additional combat maneuvers.

if you're sticking with fighter then I agree that unarmed fighter is probably your best option. It lets you pick up grabbing style for free which would allow you to use a dan bong without penalty. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to pick up Grabbing Master without switching over to brawler or monk. Of course that only matters if you were planning on grappling multiple opponents at the same time.

You could take Racial heritage (Serpent Folk) so that you qualify for the feat Final Embrace. This gives you both grab and constrict. Having grab would make it so that it so that weapon training will apply to grapple checks for you so long as you're using a weapon that weapon training applies to, unarmed strike or monk weapons in the case of unarmed fighter (dan bong is a monk weapon btw). Since you're using the weapon to perform the combat maneuver, the combat maneuver gains any bonuses to attack that the weapon does. Grab also gives a +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks.

Oh, and since you want to grapple dragons. You'll want a belt of impossible action to get around the size limitations on grab and constrict. Sorry, I just realized it only applies to combat maneuvers so that may not be helpful.

What even is a Dan Bong? I know it's some kind of stick, but how in the world does it help someone grapple?

I'm enticed by the Racial Heritage -> Final Embrace line. Would one still get to add the Unarmed Strike bonuses against a target that is too large to use Grab? If so, then that's definitely the route I want to take there.

Seriously, thanks again for the help.

You can make some devastating Grappling characters without weapon master. How do you want your character to work? What does winning look like for your grappler?

My vision for this character is to be an over-the-top "WWE style" wrestler. Someone who is suplex slamming, sleeper holding, tossing fools around. It is also going to be ran in a campaign that will have us squaring off against a considerable amount of dragons. So there is also a need for pretty big CMB & CMD numbers.

Just to back up scott

Grapple literally anything: Tetori

Grapple but be able to swap to something else on the fly: Brawler

Grapple into pin into coup de grace: Shifter

Grapple plus chaining maneuvers: Unarmed fighter.

I particularly don't want to go down the Tetori monk route. I've seen it suggested a ton around here, and I won't deny that it is good. I just want to see how strong of a grappler that I can make outside of it. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with FoM though...

My hope with the Weapon Training interactions was to gain that as an additional bonus to CMD (to hold the grapples) through Combat Maneuver Defense (EX) Advanced Weapon Training, and the ability to gain an additional enhancement bonus to grapples through Warrior Spirit (Su).

I'm open to the idea of changing classes, but I'd like to see how far the Fighter can go for this. I guess since we're already here, I'm aware of the following sources of increases to grappling - before anyone makes suggestions.

Thanks for the breakdown, you two.

So, our current answer is "Yes, it is legal. Some features, however would do nothing." That makes me apprehensive to go down this route, as tempting as Weapon Training for grapple is.

I'm planning on talking to my GM about this over the next few days. I just wanted to make a masked wrestler fighter. I'm fairly certain that choosing the much more obviously legal Unarmed Strike wouldn't really help here, thanks to unarmed strikes not helping in grapple maneuvers, right?

I appreciate the help.

1. "Grapple" isn't a weapon in a weapon group. So it can't be picked as something for advanced weapon training to apply to. Just because something is a weapon it doesn't mean that it is a weapon in a weapon group. "Ray" is another example of a "weapon" that is like this. It's explicitly an eligible choice for weapon focus but it isn't a weapon that is part of a weapon group.

There are weapons that can be used to initiate a grapple (eg. Mancatcher). AWT would apply to a mancatcher and would subsequently add to your combat maneuver check to perform grapple checks with it.

2. I don't understand what you're asking. It causes you to temporarily gain the benefits of a combat feat a nearby enemy is using. Does the enemy have improved grapple? If they do and you meet the pre-reqs for improved grapple then you would gain the benefits of improved grapple which provides an applicable +2 to your CMD.

3. Grapple checks are not attacks they are combat maneuvers and therefore can not crit. That being said, if a creature has grab they can make a normal attack and if that attack hits they can initiate a grapple for free. Such a creature can crit on the attack, but they can not crit on the free grapple. In fact if they roll a nat 20 and their total result fails to exceed to the target's CMD they still fail to grapple the target.

I'm referring to the Weapon Master archetype for the Fighter who has different rules for Weapon Training. They don't choose a weapon group. It functions under their selected weapon only.

The weapon master must select a single type of weapon (such as longsword or shortbow). All of his abilities apply to that weapon type.

At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.

This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be compatible with Grapple, as that is a legal choice for Weapon Focus, right?

I think for #2 we are just talking about different abilities. It grants you an insight bonus to AC when attacked by the chosen weapon.

That's fair enough on #3.

I'm just trying to get to the point where I can make Fighter abilities mesh with Grapple for a wrestler I'm trying to play.

The main question is in the subject line.

It's already been established on the boards that "grapple" is a weapon (as described in Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions of those.) I've also been through the threads where it's been decided that boosting Unarmed Strike does nothing to help grappling because you aren't using them in the attempt.

My question revolves around the assumption that Weapon Master (Grapple) is a legal choice for Fighters:

1. In regards to class features and Advanced Weapon Training, when would one be considered "wielding" a grapple?

2. Is Mirror Move somehow completely useless, or would it be a good argument to boost CMD as the AC when you are attacked by a grapple?

3. Can one even confirm a critical hit grapple?

I feel lost in how this all interacts.

You can also get Improved Unarmed Strike from a perfectionist shavtoosh.

Well that makes me feel a lot less bad about the cheesy strat. The difference is that the Tattoo only cost 700 gp. Yours has way more to it though which is nice. Either way, good find for future builds too.

What about going the route of getting combat expertise and trying to reduce the penalties it gives? I know there's a trait that reduces the penalties by 1, so you could have +3 for only a -2.

Tengu have a thing that lets them count their claws as IUS feat I think.

Combat Expertise is an option, the only thing is that with the current setup, starting at level 4, Fighting Defensively for this build is -2 for +5

-4/+2 base
-4/+3 cautious warrior trait
-4/+4 3 ranks in acrobatics
-2/+5 crane style

I won't even be using Crane Style at 4th though, it only becomes worth it when he gets Stalwart at 5th. Where it will be -2 to attack for DR 5/-.

I've just been trying to find a way to reduce the penalties of Fighting Defensively that are not Crane Style / the Madu Shield.

The Tengu thing is interesting for sure, that probably won't help here since so many of these feats require Half-Orc, but that is still good to know for future builds (I have an unarmored swordsman that might be switching over to Tengu now for that.)

Thanks for the response

I thought considering you are getting free 'big six' items built into your character progression, things like save boosts and stat boosts wouldn't be such a big problem.

I guess I didn't explain it enough, we still have to pay for the effects, they just don't take up the slots anymore - letting us take other stuff in the slots.

Shield focus + Unhindering shield + Buckler makes the Viking archetype worth it for a two-handed weapon fighter. But I understand if you aren't devoting anything towards Intimidate.

If it wasn't obvious btw, Crane Style was chosen because Fighting Defensively + Stalwart is what boosts the DR numbers to respectable amounts. The shield stuff could be used to buff AC, but I think with the DR from Stalwart, middle to high AC should be fine.

Is there a reason you are going Fighter VMC Barbarian instead of Fighter (Viking)? Viking was reprinted in Ultimate Wilderness, but originally appears in People of the North. You could pick a different VMC that would suit the character better, or make use of the extra feats by not taking VMC.

Thanks for the quick response.

While I did like how the Viking got Rage and Rage Powers built into the Archetype. I really didn't like how you gave up every class feature other than the Bonus Feats. Bravery is much better now that Armed Bravery exists, Armor Training is what helps boost the Fighter's DR/- thanks to Armored Juggernaut. Weapon Training is also a huge boon now because of the Advanced Weapon Training.

The other downside was that the Viking gave bonuses to Shields/Intimidation and I am going with a two-handed weapon and haven't the room for Intimidation stuffs...so I would be getting a lot of stuff I just wouldn't use.

Hey everyone, our table just started a new campaign and I've really wanted a character that was really difficult to put down. I already figured out the way I'd like to go about it, and already did play it for the first session. We have 3 sessions to make any changes to the builds / character ideas, and I'd like to see if there is any way for me to do this in a better fashion that might open up a feat slot.

Okay so with that being said here is the build that I have so far. It's worth noting that we are starting at level 3, but I'm okay if the build doesn't ramp up for a while.

Point Buy
I wanted to just be able to survive forever, but I didn't want to become a tank that dealt 0 damage. So, for the first time, I had to hardcore dump stats. I think I like his personality from the dumps though, so that's good.

Strength 16 (+3)
Dexterity 14 (+2)
Constitution 16 (+3) -racial-> 18 (+4)
Intelligence 7 (-2)
Wisdom 10 (+0)
Charisma 9 (-1)

I also have a "belt of +2 Constitution" effect from our homebrew automatic bonus progression so that is going to take my Con up to 20.

Half-Orc
+2 Constitution
Intimidating -> Shaman's Apprentice - Free Endurance Feat
Orc Ferocity - I wish I could trade this for Sacred Tattoo, but I need it for feat prerequisites
Darkvision -> Skilled - I wanted more skill ranks
Weapon Familiarity -> Dusksight -> While also being able to see at night

Why Fighter VMC Barbarian
Fighters and Barbarians, in my opinion, both had lots of things going for them when it came to being very difficult to put down. I had such a hard time deciding which one I wanted to go for, so I decided to attempt getting the best of both worlds.

Thanks to the Advanced Weapon and Armor Training, Fighters can get a respectable DR/- (Armored Juggernaut + Improved Stalwart + Armor Mastery) and all good saves by level 13 (Fighter's Reflexes (+Gloves of Dueling) + Armed Bravery (+Sash of the War Champion). Also, the Fighter has access to the Orc FCB which gives that bonus 2 Hit Points in the negative. Finally, the bonus feats are helping this build turn online as early as possible.

With VMC Barbarian, gaining Rage early on let's me grab Ferocious Tenacity, in my opinion one of the strongest options for this style of build. So long as I hold my rage rounds until I'm under 0, I have no excuse for dying in a fight. Uncanny Dodge at level 7 means I will never lose the Stalwart bonus again. Rage Power at 11 will be Guarded Life, to turn 11 points of damage taken below 0 into nonlethal damage (which will then be reduced to 0 from the DR 13/- we will have at that point.)

Trying to get around Improved Unarmed Strike
I was trying to find a way around having to take Improved Unarmed Strike, as this build is rather feat starved as is. So I came across this weird little thing.

wayfinders inlay with deep red sphere ioun stones can grant Improved Unarmed Strike as long as they are set in the wayfinder. DM allowed me to get a Magical Tattoo of a wayfinder and a cracked deep red sphere ioun stone which gives me the effects permanently.

Feat Path and Trait Choices

Combat Trait - Cautious Warrior (to boost Fighting Defensively by +1)
Race Trait - Cruel Rager (with the low number of Rage Rounds I have, if I can gain cycling through items, this give me a 25% chance to keep a round of rage each turn.
Faith Trait - Fate's Favored (picked it with the intention of eventually getting a stone of good luck but I can easily switch this one out)
Drawback - Infamous (story relevant)

House Feat - Power Attack (to stay relevant in damage)
House Feat - Combat Stamina
Optional Packet Feat - Ironhide (Feat prereqs and it was deemed minor enough)
Shaman's Apprentice - Endurance
Antihero - Diehard
Magic Tattoo Feat - Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 1 - Tenacious Survivor
Fighter 1 - Ferocious Tenacity (retrained at 3rd level when I got rage)
Fighter 2 - Dodge
Fighter 4 - Crane Style
Level 5 - Stalwart
Fighter 6 - Deathless Initiate
Fighter 8 - Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Level 9 - Fast Healer
Fighter 10 - Deathless Master
Fighter 12 - Deathless Zealot
Level 13 - Improved Stalwart
Fighter 14 - Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Fighter 15 - Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
Level 17 - Extra Rage Power (Greater Guarded Life)
Fighter 18 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Flachion)
Fighter 20 - undecided

Equipment Choices

Falchion - Eventually adding keen will give us a 25% to crit, gaining a round of rage back thanks to Cruel Rager. It will also be a nice bump to damage by becoming a pseudo-crit fisher. I will try to get speed, courageous, and/or furious when WBL allows for it.

Full Plate - Best armor in town, with Armor Training, I can get pretty good Dex to this eventually as well. Going to +5 for sure, might get the Fortification line to stack up with Zealot making me almost Critical Hit proof.

Cord of Stubborn Resolve - Best way to get Rage Cycling from items as far as I know.

What this gives us once everything is online
-Hit point pool will be d10s + high Constitution bonuses (eventually +12)

-Compatibility with Heavy Armor will help keep AC respectable

-Once our HP falls below 0, Guarded Life will kick in and reduce damage by level. Deathless Initiate will also kick in and give us +2 untyped bonuses to Attack and Damage.

-If our HP falls too low (Constitution Score + 2/level [thanks to Fighter FCB]) and Guarded Life can't save us, we can use Ferocious Tenacity to reduce the damage down further.

-If we ever are dropped to death, we stay alive for 5 - 12 rounds thanks to Tenacious Survivor and can be healed back up for the cost of one negative level.

-Damage will be able to stay at a competitive level thanks to Weapon Training + Rage, Saves will be solid because of Fighter's Finesse and Armed Bravery Advanced Weapon Training.

It looks like you already have a build planned out, why are you asking for help?
Honestly, I hate the flavor of Crane Style in this build. I dislike having to do all of that cheese, getting Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, and Crane Style.

I'm looking for help bypassing the need for those feats. The main issue I'm having is finding a way to reduce the fighting defensively penalty down to a reasonable amount.

Other comments are acceptable and requested as well, any way to shave some feats off what is required to get off the ground and running. Thanks for your time.

Thanks so far for the opnions and tips.

I just want to reiterate that the goal is / has been to protect the party from damage. The options I put down in the original post were just some options to make the wall, himself, tanky.

The issue I am looking to overcome is how to eat attacks / reduce attacks towards allies. I'm assuming there aren't any feats that allow you to switch positions with an ally on the fly to take their hit / similar effect. Which makes walling hard.

Let's talk about making a character that is the living fortress for his party. Soaking damage and keeping his party out of harms way.

Before anyone spins off on this tangent, I know that, historically, full defense builds don't generally work in Pathfinder because of the lack of Taunt-like CC. Still, I'd like to explore the options available to see if a wall is achievable.

Stacking AC / DR / Hp is obviously important, but only goes so far. We will also need to have resistance / immunities to elements. Strong saves are also vital.

I would like him to weild a Tower Shield to use as his main defensive tool. Other than that, it's pretty free game. Defense away.

Some stuff I also know about but haven't been able to piece a build together.

Bodyguard Feat, Shield Wall...I'm at work so these are kinda spitfire. I always think of these posts when I'm at work.

Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance ^__^

Thanks so much for the help everyone. Still deciding on the route to go but all of this gives me a good idea of my options.

I too am interested in this.

If any class and archetype is an option, I'd suggest the Master summoner archetype summoner. When you summon, simply flavor the creature summoned as clockwork in nature. Now, they aren't, so they'll be able to be affected by mental magics, but it'd be a versatile option. That coupled with your eidolon that you could build into something that you could ride could work out for you. Note that master summoner is generally an archetype you'll want to talk with your Gm about, and personallye make sure you can handle efficiently.

Other than that, there is the craft construct feat. You'd want a magic class of some kind, a lot of money and the neccesary skills to back up the crafting easily.

Let me start by saying thanks for your input. I was aware of just flavoring summoner but as I said before the goal was to make them mechanically constructs (and ones that lasted longer than the minutes/level that the Summoner gets. Still, its a good "cant figure it out another way" option to roll with if I can't find a mechanical way for a robot army to work xD

If your GM is down with some home brew might I recommend Shameless Plug for my Tinker class

Historically, our table has been on of "give a real attempt to make it work via official rules before resorting to homebrew" but if we have to start looking at homebrew, I know where to start :) I will read this when I'm home from work though.

In an upcoming campaign, I thought it would be fun to play as a quirky / borderline insane engineer obsessed with the mystical wonders of clockwork.

That being said, I am having a hard time fleshing out the mechanical side of things. I want him to have a large array of clockwork creations with different abilities to rely on in combat (read:minionmancers), and possibly ride a mech around (not like a gundam...think more like the Mechanic Class from Maplestory, or Rumble from League of Legends).

His personal combat skills would be lacking, but he would utilize his wacky clockwork creations (read:wondrous items) if he had to personally fight.

I also know this will be a gold intensive thing since crafting, especially constructs, isn't cheap. I do, however, want them to be clockwork constructs mechanically (no Sythesist Summoner flavored as Constructs)

A build isn't necessary, rather just options that might guide me in the right direction. If you do wanna take a whack at a build, I'm pretty much locked into Gnome for the race and I am leaning towards a Wizard for class (flavor spells as clockwork devices). We are starting at level 4 and use 23 point buy, hero point system with optional antihero system, automatic bonus progression, and 2 traits but you can get a 3rd if you also take a drawback.

Thanks so much in advance for your help.

- Edit for options I already am considering -

Traits - Spark of Creation / Pragmatic Activator

Feats - Item Creation Feats / Skill Focus (Spellcraft/Craft[Clockwork]) / Improved Familiar / Prodigy / Magical Aptitude

Familiar - Valet Archetype

Wizard School - Universalist (Arcane Builder) *On the fence because losing a bonus spell / spell level sucks

Items - Amazing Tools of Manufacture

Yeah, but opening the seventh would make you face a DC 38 Fort and Will right after you opened it (and get 2d20 take better result.) Or at least, thats the way the order of operations would make it seem.

- Effect passively waiting for Chakras to be on.

1. Spend Ki and Swift action to open Chakra /maintain

1.A. Choose Benefit(s) to gain from opening Chakra as part of the Swift Action.

1.B. Gain the benefits of the Awakened Chakras

2. Now that the if-then statement of the Saves portion is true, you make the Will and Fort Saves.

Because if on action 1 you decide to drop the chakras, you dont have to save. I'm confident that this is how it is supposed to function.

I would assume that whatever the most recent printing says would be the most up-to-date rule. If the 2012 printing has +1 Ki/level, assume that the online resource is inaccurate.

Yeah that's what I figured...I just thought it was interesting that pretty much every resource I use for rules (pfsrd, archives of nethys, and the masterwork tools android app) have it as the old ruling.

So to sum up the questions we have...

1. When do you have to make the Fort and Will Save to maintain Chakra? The start of your turn, right before you decide to awaken the next one, immediately after you awaken your next one, the end of your turn, whenever you want in the turn?

2. At what point do you benefit from said awakened Charka bonuses? If one awakens the Crown Chakra, do they gain the benefit before they attempt the DC 38 save to maintain the Chakra?

3. What type of action is it to activate the Navel, Heart, and Throat Chakras? Do you immediately gain their bonuses during the Swift Action to maintain / awaken, or are they some sort of other action?

4. Is there supposed to be a save for the Navel Chakra's breath attack? If so, what is the formula for the DC?

-as an offside question-

5. Has the vow of silence discrepancy ever been cleared up? In the second printing of Ultimate Magic (January 2012), the Vow of Silence offers +1 ki/level but the online resources offer +1/6 level. The errata showed the buff in Poverty from 1/2 to 1, but did not talk about Silence.

EDIT
Added a question about whether or not there is supposed to be a save on the 30 ft. Cone Breath Attack coupled with the Navel Chakra.

Activating Chakras

. . . Awakening chakras or maintaining chakras is a swift action that costs 1 ki point . . . Each round when expending the ki for that round, the initiate can select the benefit from one chakra awakened up to that point.

It really does seem like the main intent is that the benefit occurs right when you spend the Ki for maintaining.

Navel Chakra

. . . Upon awakening his navel chakra, the initiate can channel the serpent-fire as a breath attack . . .

Heart Chakra

. . . Once the heart chakra has been awakened, the initiate can channel his serpent-fire into a torrent of healing energy. . .

Emphasis mine. I seems like "awakening" the chakra is choosing which chakra to gain benefit from, which would in turn, give you the bonus right when you choose to awaken that chakra (as part of the 1 Ki Swift Action)

I suppose I should clarify that my problem is mostly with Chakras themselves being bad.

I really do like Root Chakra, even though it is capped at DR 7/- at level 14, that is still as good as the Invulnerable Rager's at that point (and better than the level 20 base Barbarian.) It's an easy second power to tack on when you get the ability to pick 2/3 and just a good one to default to when you don't need another one. The flying portion of the Sacral Chakra is limited, sure, by needing to end on the ground. That being said, the Light Spirit does increase the duration out to Wisdom rounds (even if you close chakra), so you can stay afloat for a little while longer. I think the main benefit to this is that you will be able to fly a whole level earlier than full casters - and later on you will have enough ki to burn 2 levels of Chakra to fly consistently (if you don't want to invest in permanent fly.)

I completely agree with you that the Navel and Throat Chakras seem to be poorly worded and leave a few questions. That being said, the fact that you "benefet from one chakra awakened" "when expending the ki for that round", it could be argued that you get these abilities for free as part of the swift action.

If that is true (which is also what ShieldLawrence is alluding to), then the Navel Chakra is effectively a free 2d8 + (1d8/chakra beyond 3) damage each round in an AoE which, of course, could be better...but that is still just more free damage.As for the Heart Chakra, if the above assumption is correct that it is part of the swift action...it's effectively 1d8 + (chakra x 2) fast healing that also removes status. That sounds pretty damned good actually. When you get it (level 8) that's 1d8 + 8 hp for free each round if you need the top-off. It's better than a cure light wounds potion ('_>') and it makes you able to let that more efficient healer focus on other members. I agree that the Throat Chakra isn't the best thing. To me, providing that the activation of the other bonuses are part of awakening the Chakra, this is the weakest of them all. I guess you could use in niche situations (you could pump your Wisdom to high levels to boost the save as a free stagger each round) but this one is situational at best.

The Brow True Seeing boon, I feel, goes beyond the scope of just invisible creatures. Sure, casters usually pack tools to help get around invisibility, that doesn't stop blur, displacement, auto defeat illusions and the like. So, I see it more of a "turn on if your opponent is mirror imaging, bluring, displacement, invisible and the caster ran out of wand / scrolls / has no spells left, see into the Ethereal Plane. It has both in combat and out uses which is cool to me. 120 range is nice as well (you can spot the invisible coming from far away.)

Obviously the Crown is amazing, it's the whole reason going into this Chakra system is worth it. It makes you so much more accurate in your attacks, better at all Saves, skill checks, etc. The dream is getting to that point and getting 2-3 abilities every round. Probably defaulting on the DR and double d20s, splashing in fly every Wisdom rounds, and Healing / Breath Weapon when you need them.

I think the pivotal point in this whole class (the reason I started this thread in the first place) is how the bonuses work. If you have to activate these "when you awaken the chakra" abilites as a separate action, it does significantly bring the power down. If they auto-activate when you awaken the chakra (which the wording suggests it does), I think they can be a great way to spend your Swift Action and build a character around.

As for your frustration, I appreciate you challenging this as it is making me take a more critical look at the rules. I honestly just think that people are misinterpreting how the Chakras function. I'd like to believe that they made this whole system with the mindset of being functional and worth it.

Second Chance is nice, the reroll could come in very clutch. I'm currently looking at Half-Orc Sacred Tattoo, Fate's Favored, Indomitable Faith (or Adopted - Carefully Hidden) for a quick +3 to Will saves.

On top of that, when opening Chakras you have to do it sequentially, meaning that you'll spend 3-4 rounds powering up before you can get to any decent powers.

I think most of the useful powers are the earlier ones anyway, excluding the Crown Chakra's "5th Edition DnD Advantage" on all d20 rolls. If you explicitly DO need the higher Chakras sooner, there is the Linked Chakra ability where 1/day @ 7, 2 @ 12, and 3 @ 17, you can open as many as you want as a standard action - so it's only a one turn powerup at that point.

Ki also gets pretty high if you take some of the vows, no? Poverty works pretty well now with the Magical Tattoos and, in home games, Automatic Bonus Progression which is an extra 20 at level 20. Wasn't vow of Silence also changed at some point to being 1/level? I know the books said it but the pfsrd still has 1/6th level.

If it has been confirmed to be 1/level, that's [2*level]+[1/2 level]+Wis which can actually be quite a bit. This can be extended pretty far with the whole "spend 1 ki for 3 rounds of maintaining chakra" granted through Chakra Expertise, and it's value can be shown at 10th level with the whole "pick two abilities for 1 ki that stacks with the pick-two bonus of the seventh chakra" with the Chakra Mastery ability.

I 100% agree that it isn't the most optimal way to build a monk, but I would contest that it isn't "Terrible"

At level 12 being able to do a no-save, no-resist 5d8 breath attack isn't really that bad for a martial, that's 22.5 average damage for free on top of your flurry of blows for whoever you can catch in it. For bonus points, use your swift during your flying kick to shape the cone to only hit bad guys; going 5' up means you can blast a 10' square below you.

What kind of action is it to do the breath weapon? It just kinda says "upon awakening his (your) navel chakra..." is it a free action as part of it? standard action?

Picking up Ki Leech at 10 is a must to keep you going. Bag of rats or some summoning items could keep you going a very long time. In practice I've never gone below 5 spent ki after picking it up, but that's thanks due to an agile Urumi Ascetic Strike build.

Definitely noted. Will make sure to fit room for that for the future.

That being said, Chakras aren't really very good at low levels, but once you pick up some class features it becomes a very fun and worthwhile. The 6-7-8 range is when I think it becomes worth it as a strategy.

I like to think of these chakras somewhere between the Avatar (the last airbender) enlightenment interpretation, and the 8-Gates of Life from Naruto. It totally makes sense that they aren't really a viable strategy low level because you need to practice with such an enlightenment.

Do I wish they did more to be like the Gates from Naruto? Yesh - something like a bonus to STR and DEX based on number of Chakras open would be super dope (but maybe balance it by increasing the damage on failed Fort saves.) This isn't the thread on how to make it better though...rather just the rules on how these darned things work.

This discussion gave me the idea that you could activate a chakra as a readied action of when the next turn starts. There wouldn't be a save until your turn came back around, since you are doing it outside of a round.

Can you use a Swift action as a readied action? I feel like I've read somewhere it can only be standard actions - not their equivalents...maybe I'm just going crazy.

Trust me, nothing mitigates how absolutely worthless Chakras are unless you use housrules. Your ki and actions are better spent elsewhere. Serprent-Fire adept doesn't do enough.

I really think you aren't giving this archetype enough credit. The ability to not spend Ki for 1 round (2 rounds at 16th) effectively doubles/triples the amount of rounds you can keep the Chakra going.

Also, once you hit level 6, you effectively can't lose the Chakras on turns that you are just maintaining the same level (by only going for the Fortitude save.) Sure, you risk taking some damage, but not closing Chakra.

Failing the will save causes all Chakras to close. It's right in the Chakra section.

Right, failing a Will save does close all open chakra, but that wasn't the question. It was whether or not you have to make a separate save to open said Chakra. Let me expand on this a little more.

I've read the few threads about this and people were referencing that the level 2 Chakra Expertise ability that adds 1/2 monk level on Will and Fort saves only applied AFTER the first save (implying that opening the Chakra was it's own separate thing.)

However, after looking at how it all works out, it suggest the opposite is true. Opening the Chakra seems to take no save whatsoever, and then, AFTER the Chakra is opened, you make the save to maintain.

Because of this, it seems to me like you open the Chakra just by spending 1 Ki and a Swift Action, then make the maintain saves with the +1/2 Monk level bonus.

SerpentFire Adept is pretty fun. Playing one at level 12 currently, I only fail the saves on a Nat 1 but have spent a lot of my resources to achieve it.

Only having to spend/save to maintain every other round and only having to do Fort to maintain works pretty well. Chakras aren't really a great mechanic until Serpent Fire Adept 6 or 7 IMO, that's when the archetype makes it fun and doable.

Is the above interpretation correct to you? Off Topic what resources did you pour into your saves? what was your ability score layout?

Every round you have to spend an action, ki, and make all the saves. Chakras are terrible.

You do not open a specific chakra until after a successful save, so you would only benefit from them after having saved.

Well the action economy, save difficulties, and ki cost is mitigated by Sperpent-Fire Adept.

Can I ask where in the rules it says that you don't open the chakra with a failed save? I see that if you fail the Will save you are dazed and lose all progress and the Fort makes you take damage, but the "Activating Chakra" section says nothing about needing to make a save to open them.

Was checking out the Chakra system and it describes opening Chakras as a Swift Action. The only requirement is that you have to be double the level of chakra.

The maintain portion states that during the rounds that you have chakras open, you have to make the Will and Fort saves. Failure resulting in damage or losing your Chakras.

So what happens on the turn you activate the Crown Chakra? Do you have to make the DC 38 saves beforehand, losing all progess if you fail? Or do you open the Chakra - thus benefiting from the double d20s, and then make the maintain roll?

Also, when do you have to use the swift action? I see it as...

1. Turn Starts, Immediately decide to Maintain/Drop/Open, make the Save, benefit from Chakra

2. Turn starts, make save for having open chakra, open/maintain/drop, gain benefits

3. Turn starts, open/maintain/drop - at some point during turn make saves

That was poorly worded in hindsight but I think you get what I'm asking. Thanks :D

Because opening the ability to one template, opens it to others, you'll get questions such as Why can't I shapeshift into a huge vampiric werewolf? Mad alchemist Fred has a herd of them so they exist!

Just wanna make you aware of something I had said earlier in the post

But they can exist. Granted, through templates, which I'm not suggesting people can use. But they do exist.

I know that adding templates would be bad for extremely obvious reasons. I put that in the beginning to stop people from thinking that this was just some babyrage about wanting to beast shape into some crazy fey creature half dragon raptor.

Clearly, you didn't even read my question to completion. I asked why you couldn't choose a size allowed through your beast shape spell (at 3 it would be diminutive - huge), choose an animal, and then gain the appropriate natural attacks / special abilities. Nothing about templates.

Also, thanks Lorewalker for the input earlier.

In game design terms, a mid-level druid already has dozens of wild shape options available at any time. Allowing size-altered creatures would create hundreds more options, all of which require extra work to recalculate stats that are modified by the size change. The rule probably exists for the sake of sanity and simplicity.

Still, a good GM might allow a specific variant if it makes sense and isn't unbalancing.

I can see that as being problematic too. That being said, it could be a stipulation that the player would have to be able to quickly identify the abilities provided (making them have to do their homework to be prepared)

Well, if you can find a huge creature to wild shape into that, mechanically, is similar enough to what a huge sized wolf could do (bite attack, improved trip, scent), fluff it to be a huge wolf, if DM allows.

Yeah this is always a quick and easy fix. I was just hoping there was a reasoning as to why we had to resort to the reflavor. Some people have already given enough insight to explain why. Even though I don't totally agree with the rule as is, I understand the reason it needs limitations for the RAW.

*edited to fix beast shape 3 size range*

Thanks for the input everyone. I have been shown some fringe power-game scenarios where it can be unbalanced, which explains the weird rule. I, still, think it is a silly stipulation on the rules (and our DM has already said how he would bend that rule as well - similar to what the Tyrant Lizard King said too.)

Still, thank you all for the insight on this matter :)

- The rules support statting them up, sure, but that's not the same as huge-sized wolves existing in the game's world.
- Mechanically, no. Fluff-wise, sure, I don't want the Druid picking a fine-sized cheetah scouting form because it's a bit better than a real animal- that breaks immersion for the whole table in most games that aren't intentionally silly.

- Better move speeds on really small animals, scaling up a few creatures with lots of natural attacks up (raptor, octopus, etc.)

I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed in a home game, but it'd be bad to have as the default way the system works.

- This point is pretty much done xD we agree it can be statted, but we disagree on whether or not we should be able to take its form.

- I see what you are saying, but how much better is a Cheetah than something else? It still only has a run speed of 50. You could sprint once per hour and I found a few tiny animals with 40 ft move pretty easily (I am at work so I cant thoroughly look atm)

- It is worth noting that the speed on every animal I've checked between base and Dire forms don't actually get speed ups (havent checked fliers though) and the large template doesn't change speed either so even if someome tried to argue that route, it wouldn't make a speed difference. As for natural attacks, I see what you are saying, but by the time you get beast shape 3, getting 5 attacks isn't AS busted as right at level 4 with the raptor...I realize that is a weak point, but a raptor/octopus wouldn't be the end all combat fighter if Huge.

I'd imagine because it is so easily abused. Size makes a lot of difference for things like abilities, number of attacks and attack types. I'm certain I could add or subtract size from available animals and create unintended encounter destroyers. So it is understandable for the rules to be written in an attempt to prevent that very thing.

What abilties get altered by size that are allowed by Beast Shape 3? Number of attacks is static based off number of natural weapons. Again, I know a large raptor would still get 5. I just can't think of a different sized animal that would wreck an encounter of proper level.

Yeah, while a wolf might not be a problem, there is almost certainly something that would be if it could be any size you want. We already have an issue with animal companions and wild shape overly favoring things like big cats. I don't think we need to make the system easier to break by default.

Favoring big cats makes it sound like it's inherently flawed, ya know?

In a home game, I allow Wild Shape to choose any animal that actually exists in world. So if there are Huge wolves running around, you could be one. But, if they don't exist, you can't.

I agree that this is a good houserule fix, but I guess I just don't see why that isn't how it works anyways. Just pick a size allowed, gain the size bonuses, pick an animal, gain the animals attacks and abilities allowed by the shapechange.

I know it sounds like babyraging over it, but I just want insight as to why it's not the way it works.

- Because there aren't huge wolves to turn into.

- Because then you could turn into a fine-sized wolf, and things get silly.
- Because it provides consistent rules for balance reasons.

- But they can exist. Granted, through templates, which I'm not suggesting people can use. But they do exist.

- Is there honestly a problem with being a Tiny wolf? There are many tiny creatures to turn into, and most of them would be statisitcally better than wolves.

- I'm still hard pressed to find a single example where this would cause a balance issue. They can already assume the form of creatures the same size, usually with more abilites.

Title pretty much says it all.

I am aware that you have to take the shape of a bestiary statted out animal, but my question is why.

The normal statted out Wolf gives you the abilites a large one would have (bite 1d6 medium plus trip, scent, and low-light vision, 50 feet of movement) and you can also pick the large one, Dire Wolf, and get stuff as well. Why not just scale natural attacks one more (2d6 from 1d8) and give the abilities of a wolf?

Note this applies to more animals, just using wolf as an example.

Is there a specific reason we can't just get the size animal we want (using Beast Shape) and getting the size modifierds, then checking the base statted out creature for the allowed abilities/base natural attacks to scale with size? Is there like a really broken combo somewhere I'm overlooking? It just seems silly that, keeping this example, a Wolf themed Druid has to either stop at Large or switch themes once they unlock Beast Shape 3.

Idk if Advice was the best place to post this (I dont post that often '_>') thanks though!

-Edit-

Conversely, why can't someome do that in reverse? Like playing a small T-Rex.. I know the Eagle Shaman or whatever its called got the specific errata to be able to play a Young Roc.

Do you think it would destroy game balance in any sense to just allow them to choose a size and animal in a homebrew game? If so, why?

I'm currently running a game that has the PCs on a ship, and I've done a bit of research into this as well.

The rules on ship travel include some abstraction, but I think overall it works much like a PC's travel does.

Rationale
For a ship, like a PC, it's top speed is a lot faster than it's "overland travel" speed. Realistically, with favorable winds and currents and sails and sailors, etc, etc a ship can reach faster speeds than it does on average over long journeys, but the average speed it will have attained includes times when the wind is calm, the current is against you, you must tack against the wind, etc. so the average speed is less. It's similar to how a PC may have a run speed of 120', while a move action is only 30'. And, while a realistic comparison of a walking human might happen to match, remember that the distance traveled in a day of walking is explicitly stated to include taking breaks for meals etc. Plus, what if every single step of that journey is not on perfectly flat, solid ground? Even the rules for walking distance in a day have included some abstraction you see!

Realism
Plus factor in the difference between types of ships. Is the typical sailing ship in your game world a caravel? In reality the average speed of a caravel was about 4 knots, which translates into 90-100 miles per day. On a world map with 30 mile hexes, that's 3 hexes per day, while the game rules say a sailing ship can only travel, as you've stated, 48 miles. A caravel is a very old style of ship that was available in medieval times. If your game world also includes ships typical of the golden age of piracy, like sloops and schooners, those ships could cover well over 300 miles in a day. The game rules say a sailing ship can travel 2mph for 24 hours... that works out to about 1.7 knots... slower than even the slowest sailing ships in history and more in line with such a ship being propelled by rowers with oars.

Conclusion
I think ultimately the realities of sea travel, and the rules in the book should...

I see you have done some research xD Thanks for the insight! Definitely linking this to the DM for reference. ^__^

Yeah I agree that there are a ton of variables that go into sailing, but that still seems like a ton of inconsistency that would make round by round sea travel more efficient (distance / hour wise, not time spent at table) than the overland rules.

If they are assuming average speeds on the overland travel tables, that would mean the average is barely moving at all relative to max speed (moving about 17 feet per round... 18% of max speed.) which makes across ocean travel (which is currently happening in a campaign Im playing in) realllllllly long.

I don't think this was talked about yet on here (a search of Ship + Travel, and Ship + Speed didn't bring anything)

Travel times for ships seem to be really inconsistent.

Overland travel for a walking human is 3 miles per hour across 8 hours for a total of 24 miles per day. If you take their speed of 30 feet per round and convert it to miles per hour (x10 for 1 min, x60 for 1 hour, ÷5280 for 1 mile) you get roughly 3.4 miles/hour or really close to the estimated overland travel speed.

However, lets take the sailing ship for example. The overland chart suggests it can move 2 miles per hour for 24 hours to total out to 48 miles per day (slower than humans walking btw) but when you take their 90 feet per round and convert it you get about 10 miles per hour or 240 miles per day.

Then if you include the fact that if a ship has favorable winds its max speed is doubled, thats a whopping 480 miles per day! (10 times the listed overland speed)

That is a pretty significant difference. Is there anywhere that clears up this inconsistency? Or should our overland travel just be handled with a ton of rounds for further distance per day?

Man, I've never thought of that either.

I was thinking of having like some painted pictures of a creature somewhere. Or possibly them stumbling upon a tome outlining a legend that they can choose to read if they want.

Thanks for the ideas :) will definitely work these into my campaign.

Hey guys,

So I'm getting ready to start a longer campaign (running from 1st level to roughly 10th across a few different campaign arcs) and I wanted to plant some lore of legendary monsters in hopes that way down the road the PCs could encounter.

How can I 1.) Make the PCs aware of these creatures well in advance without red flagging them as "end game bosses" 2.) Expand on said creatures stories throughout the campaign without having it be a looming threat.

Example: In Pirates of the Caribbean, the Kraken would have been some legendary beast that, at some point, the main PCs (in this case the crew of the Black Pearl) would have learned about in their early travels. That is why they are so scared when they finally do encounter it.

Any advice is appreciated ^__^

Hey all, I have a two questions regarding Rager's Aid from Advanced Class Guide. I don't post often but a search came up with nothing so...

1. How long does the exhaustion last after the 6 rounds is up? I'm assuming it's for the duration the fatigue was supposed to last but I'm not sure.

2. Can someone just keep using more Rager's Aid before the current one runs out to keep staving off the fatigue/exhaustion for as long as needed?

Thank you in advance ^__^

Yeah I'll just ask him about it. We like to check for official rulings before we default to house rules so thanks for clearing that up.

We've done retraining before so I might just do that when Bolstered Resilience's usefulness is up.

Thanks again for your help!

Well its for my friends campaign. Trying this whole DR to the max concept. So wait how about this...

1 Unbreakable Fighter/1 Oracle (Lame)/18 Invulnerable Rager

Now if he goes Improved Stalwart, he can get DR 22 while raging (9 Invunlerable + 3 Improved DR + 10 Improved Stalwart) so if he uses Bolstered Resilience while at 22, does it drop to 20? Feat interactions are weird.

Also, thank you for the quick response and welcome ^__^

1st post ever!

Anywho, lets say that a Wyrm Imperial Sky Dragon with DR 20/magic took a class level, and for his feat he chose Bolstered Resilience. Would that feat just literally do nothing as it would double his DR 20/magic to a max of DR 20?

It just seemed really silly so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks!