I'm trying to figure out how exactly the giant frog's Tongue, Grab, Pull, and Swallow Whole abilities work in conjunction with each other and the RAW for grappling. And looking at other threads, I've been getting mixed answers.
So I'm going to break this down step-by-step, then lay out my conclusions, which I'm not entirely sure are accurate. Please correct my individual conclusions if they are wrong, because otherwise this is how I intend to rule it when my players encounter Giant Frogs in the Mire (Skull & Shackles AP)
From the Grab universal monster rule: If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (in this case, tongue), it attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
From the frog's Tongue ability: A giant frog’s tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.
Conclusion A: The frog does not suffer a -20 penalty on its CMB checks when using its tongue to grapple by means of the Grab ability, because conducting the grapple normally for the frog means the frog doesn't gain the grappled condition, so the penalty is bypassed.
From the Pull universal monster rule: A creature with this ability can choose to make a free combat maneuver check with a successful attack (the tongue). If successful, this check pulls a creature closer. The distance pulled is set by this ability. The type of attack that causes the pull and the distance pulled are included in the creature’s description.
However, from the Grapple rules: If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
Conclusion B: As written, this means that when a giant frog uses its tongue to grab an opponent and it successfully grapples the creature, it gets pulled adjacent to the frog (eliminating the need for the Pull maneuver). If the grapple attempt fails, it can still make a combat maneuver check to pull the opponent 5 feet.
From the Swallow Whole universal monster rule: If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage.
Conclusion C: If a frog begins its turn with an opponent grappled by its tongue (the method by which Grab was triggered; and thus adjacent to the frog from conclusion B), it can attempt to swallow whole with a grapple check.
Yes.
For conclusion A, it's more that the frog grapples normally and then is immune to the grappled condition it would normally have. It still theoretically has the option to take the -20 penalty to grapple with just a body part, but there'd be no benefit to doing so, unless there were some bonus that applied to that specific use of grab.
Conclusion B sounds right and I'm not sure how there could be any question about Conclusion C, since that's how swallow whole is supposed to work by default.
The reason why I was unsure about Conclusion C was simply because swallow whole says held in the mouth, and was unsure whether simply being grappled by the tongue qualified, or if the victim had to be grabbed by a bite attack.
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I disagree. Go with RAW except where specific rules say otherwise. Specific trumps generic in all cases.
So the Tongue grapple and pull work as stated under Giant Frog's specific rules, not as under Grapple. So the frog's pull ability moves the victim 5' at a time and you ignore the part of grapple that says the victim is moved to be adjacent to the frog. Because its specific to this creature.
That's not really really how Specific vs General works. Nothing in the Frog's entry undercuts or otherwise contradicts the standard rules for grappling.
The frog has the Pull special attack, but merely having that ability doesn't negate the rules for grappling.
If the standard rules of grappling move the target next to the grappler, why bother mentioning under the specific rules for the Tongue that it can move the victim 5'? Without mentioning the specific rules for the Giant Frog's Tongue attack, it would do more than that.Specific trumps general rules. Do what the creature says, not more than what it allows when it tells you. Not every special ability is going to give you an advantage over the general rules. Occasionally, specific performs worse.
What you say about "specific rules overriding general rules" is true. However, you seem to be assuming that Pull has anything to do with grappling procedures, which it does not appear to be. It's more like a reverse bull rush if anything. The Grab and the Pull are completely separate abilities that require separate CMB rolls, even though both are triggered by the same attack (the tongue). If the Grab goes through, the Pull becomes unnecessary. If the Grab fails, then the Pull can still come into play.
Moreover, swallow whole requires a creature to be "holding a creature in its mouth," as a result of the grab ability. It says nothing about it having to be a bite attack that I can see.