What are some good challenges for good AC PCs with protective luck?

[Chyrone]

Hello.

So i've been running a few games for a party of 4 PCs.
While things were average on chances of getting hit early and mid level, they are at lvl 9 now.

Their frontliners have flat AC 30 and AC 29 (probably more after spending their money), most enemies, save for sub-bosses and bosses themselves, have a very slim chance of hitting on average. (most only on nat 20, and still not guaranteed, due to below)

Also, anything of having a fair chance of hitting them, is prone to the witch's protective luck hex, which gives a static misfortune effect on enemies' attacks against the party. Crits have been all but prevented with this setup, so far.

Damage effects/spells like dragon breath/fireball have proven somewhat troublesome, but the enemy casters don't tend to live long after getting one or 2 spells off.

They will be lvl 10 after a 1 shot one of the coming days.

So with good to high AC (the cleric pumped his AC to 40 last session) and protective luck active on everyone save the witch herself, what modules (and monsters in general) could still pose a challenge to such a party?

[Shorticus]

I play a character that grants high AC to all his allies via Blundering Defense, Archivist's bard song, and uses all sorts of support abilities. I can tell you right now the best way to get rid of him, and likewise how to stop any sort of "I make my whole team untouchable" character from screwing up your encounters:

Go after the person bolstering everyone. Don't go after the frontliners. Go after the witch.

With that said, here are some general ideas:

1. 29/30 AC is good, but I assume they have considerably less touch AC. Consider some incorporeal enemies. Wraiths, ghosts, advanced shadows, that sort of thing.

2. Protective Luck does not protect against saving throws. Plenty of monsters can debilitate a team without using an ability.. and there are mook monsters that trigger saving throws as well.

3. To protect enemy spellcasters and the like, set them up with appropriate protection. Give them minions with the Ally Shield feat, give them access to Mirror Image, give them Greater Invisibility, or put them flying in the air.

4. Keep the frontliners from reaching the spellcasters. Difficult terrain is a good start. Since your players will be level 10+ soon, they'll be able to ignore that, so have some alternative measures to make the battlefield harder for them to maneuver on.

5. Defensive positions. Have the enemies in a fortified position with traps ahead of them and readied actions to trigger things. If the party risks getting too close, the action begins.

6. If you design enemies that can attack from really, really far away and focus on getting the softies, that might do the trick.

--------------------

So, let's start with some undead. Undead are always fun.

Mummies (either advanced or normal) can be dangerous when they come in plurals. Each one requires a saving throw or paralyzed. No action on their part.

Wraiths (of which there are many varieties) target touch AC and are just really mean.

Greater Shadows are pretty dangerous and also target touch AC. If you want something less dangerous but perfect to spring on the backline, maybe throw out a few regular shadows.

Shadow Demons - these guys are an absolute pain. They are also incorporeal.

One thing about incorporeal enemies is if the fight is happening inside a dungeon there's all sorts of flanking possibilities you can have. For instance:

Party approaches a necromancer's / lick's castle. As they go inside, they're exploring a cramped hallway. Some mook undead approach from the front along with a couple spellcasting bads. Little does the party know that there are incorporeal undead waiting inside the walls that will appear at the rear of the party as soon as the adventurers' frontline has moved into melee, tangling with the spellcasters.

If you decide to use something like a dragon, do NOT have the dragon stay on the ground to fight. The dragon should do a flyby attack with its breath weapons instead, and should absolutely never fight alone. (Basically, fly overhead > breath weapon > keep flying away as their turn.)

[Shorticus]

Oh, and if there's a dungeon the players are tromping through: absolutely set up a warning system for the denizens. Let their grim masters realize someone is invading their domain, and therefore let them buff pre-battle so long as they have good reason to do so.

[Chyrone]

Hehe, well one of the PCs is an investigator, who can give others an infused fly extract.

But touch AC things would indeed be something else. Though i suspect that, as the 1 shot will feature wraiths, the cleric will upgrade to ghost touch armor. Though i shouldn't keep throwing touch attack enemies forever. ;)

Thanks for the tips though.

[Minigiant]

Space - Cackle has only a 30ft range. Get them to spread out and you have rendered it useless. That's either in a really big dungeon room, or they are outside.

AoE - Things like Fireball

Save or Suck - Anything that asks for a save instead of an attack roll

Target the Witch - A lot of these hexes do not apply to the Witch

[Scott Wilhelm]

Target their CMD?

Have them face a Gunslinger with Blindsight and an Eversmoking Bottle. They may have good AC, but how is their Flatfooted, Touch AC?

[Cevah]

By this time, the enemies know something about the party, so can prepare. Check out the following spells:
Arcane Disruption - bard 2, bloodrager 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
Hex Ward - inquisitor 1, witch 1, shaman 1, occultist 1
This can hinder the witch a bit or a lot.

Hex Nails are cheap one shot protection from witches.

Also, all high AC means is that intelligent enemies bypass them and target the others. It is also common for high AC to imply low saves.

/cevah

[Meirril]

Try this, throw the party at a few CR+4 encounters. Make sure it mostly consists of single creatures that can give them a decent beating. Make sure to play the creature as intelligent as the stats say.

Let me give a set up. A local noble (say a Count) calls the adventuring party to his estate. His holdings near the mountains have been raided for decades by Ice Giants. Every few years a band of giants comes down, steals some livestock and a few shepherds go missing.

This year was worse. Not only are the giants suspected of raiding sheep and cattle, but they raided 3 villages and a town. The raiding band included at least a dozen unusually well armed giants and some wolves. Some of the giants were even reported to use magic. They broke into houses and stores, heavily plundering the town and taking dozens of captives with them.

The Count has had enough. He displays an old (badly drawn) map that shows a fortress with a cave connecting to it from below. "My grandfather tried to end this band of giants 60 years ago. This map is all that is left of his expedition. It wasn't in vain, the raids did end for decades before they resumed." Now the count offers 10,000 gp for the clearing of this fortress.

A history check will reveal a lot of information. A DC 20 will let the players know this band of Ice Giants call themselves the Frostborn and have been raiding the villages surrounding the mountain in a slow rotation. The 30-some surrounding villages only get hit once every 5 years. A DC 30 will let the party know the Grandfather's expedition included royal knights and a party of adventurers with a small amount of repute behind them. A DC 40 will let the players know the Ice Giants also claim to be in league with a Dragon. A DC 50 will let the party know that several towns in this kingdom were raided regularly by a White dragon some hundred years ago.

The map is bad information. Not only is it crude, but the indicated cave doesn't lead to the fort! Instead it is the lair of a Mountain Troll that hunts the lower 3rd of the mountain. The Count's grandfather and his entire expedition were killed here. Have the troll open with Earthquake, Flesh to Stone the witch, and then maul the party. Loot should be a bunch of broken objects where the material they are made of is still valuable. It should be painfully apparent that most of the treasure has been buried under an earthquake in the past.

On the mountain the adventurers should spot a hunting group of ice giants. 3 Ice Giants with a pack of 10 Winter Wolves. The Ice Giants will blow a horn when they spot the party and attempt to intercept. The giants will retreat if the pack of Winter Wolves are beaten before they run out of rocks to throw, or once the first giant is killed.

Now make a fortress, spread the giants into manageable encounters. Give the fortress itself a large open courtyard. The giants keep watch for intruders. Part of the fort is tunneled into the mountain. The remaining prisoners are in that portion of the fort since it is warmer than the rest of the fort.

Change up the equipment of the giants a bit. The average giant should be given Banded Mail, a Large Masterworked Bastard Sword (wielded one-handed), and a Heavy Iron Shield. That changes their AC to 26. Alter their feats to drop Martial Prof: Great Axe and Great Cleave, pick up Exotic Prof: Bastard Sword and WF: Bastard Sword which changes their melee to

Bastard Sword: +20/+15 (2d8+13/19-20x2)

Half of the giants should be normal ice giants. For the other half, add some casting classes to them. Adding 2 levels of a casting class raises the CR of each giant by +1. Adding 1 level of a full BAB class also raises their CR by +1. Make about 1/3rd of the special giants 1st level Gunslingers with a large sized pistol and no shield. Make 1/3rd of them Skalds so they can buff their allies. Make 1/3rd of them clerics with bless ready. The clerics are Gorum worshipers.

Have the special giants be a Ranger that has favored enemy: human, Instant Enemy at the ready, and uses the sword and shield fighting style. The other high level giant in the tribe should be a cleric or bard for buffs on the leader.

Once the big fight is done and the party is considering leaving...the Dragon flied down from his cave at the peak of the mountain. The dragon in question is a Very Old White Dragon (CR 14). Alter the spell list by removing Fog Cloud and Displacement. Replace with Mirror Images and Haste respectively. Also include an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, a cloak of resistance +4, a ring of deflection +3, and a Ring of Freedom in the dragon's horde and have the dragon use the items.

The dragon will do some aerial attacks (mostly breath weapon), and fly away. If the party fails to inflict serious injury the dragon will start layering the party in fog cloud from its at will ability. Then the dragon will approach on foot and engage in melee until it either manages to kill someone or its brought below 60% of its hp. If the dragon manages to kill someone, it grabs the corpse and leaves with it next round. The dragon will then deposit the corpse in his lair and return to continue fighting.

In the dragon's lair there is an Ice Giant Woman. She was a gift to the dragon from the giants as part of a brokered deal between them. The Ice Giant is a 9th level cleric and will heal the dragon when it returns. The Ice Giant doesn't want to fight the party, but will if attacked. The Ice Giant will choose to flee if possible. She isn't wearing armor or carrying a weapon. (AC 17, only slam attacks available) Strangely this cleric worships the Green Faith and channels positive energy.

This should pose a decent threat to this party.

[Rennaivx]

As others have stated, the way to counter high AC is to not target AC. Enchantment spells in particular are a good way to do this, as low Will saves are frequently side-by-side with high AC. Essentially, your enemies see the high defenses of your frontliners and turn them into a weapon against the party, which is a completely reasonable way for them to respond to untouchable opponents. (This has actually led to some of my party's favorite encounters, as the PCs are likely as big a threat as any NPCs they will face.)

[pad300]

Another approach for minions could be alchemy. Tanglefoot bags. Heck, just alchemist's fire is a touch attack...