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I was thinking about the process involved in spell research and got to wondering is there anything in the rules I'm missing that would prevent you just wishing for a copy of a new spell to learn given . . .
1) Limited wish and Wish can effectively duplicate any non 9th level spell as is.
2) The material component for these spells is already higher than purchasing a scroll/spell is normally.
Could you just for example wish for a copy of an arcane version of cure minor light wounds or a copy of summon monster III and then learn that spell?
When adjudicating a wish I think it helps to consider what power is granting your wish.
Is it an enslaved efreeti? Likely you're getting the worst answer compatible with your stated wish. A scroll of bard CLW which crumbles to ash as you touch it, or a unique scroll whose irritable owner now knows you have it.
Is it a god? Depends on your relationship with that god and on their interests. A sorc/wiz scroll of CLW is something the right god should be able to provide, but if they're not willing to change the world it'd be limited to your own use even if transcribed.
Is it a long-gone wizard who may be dead? If they have done this research then yes. If not and someone else has then probably yes. If no one ever did, no.
Is it your own awesome magic power? If you could do this research then probably yes, but I'd likely add a quirk reflecting the fact it came from you. If you couldn't do such research, forget about it.
Assuming you could research that spell the long way and are just using wish to cut down the time it seems reasonable.
Obviously there's some serious GM variance with any non-listed effect, but I'd say this isn't any stronger in terms of permanent power increase than the +1 inherent bonus option.
If you allow it to grant spells to spontaneous casters (which I'm really not sure on) then definitely not above 4th and probably lower, a 5th level page of spell knowledge is the same price as wish after all.
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So that's 2 "Yes but I'll screw you over in granting it"?
Assuming you could research that spell the long way and are just using wish to cut down the time it seems reasonable.
Obviously there's some serious GM variance with any non-listed effect, but I'd say this isn't any stronger in terms of permanent power increase than the +1 inherent bonus option.
If you allow it to grant spells to spontaneous casters (which I'm really not sure on) then definitely not above 4th and probably lower, a 5th level page of spell knowledge is the same price as wish after all.
No I wouldn't allow it to change a sorcerer's spells known except maybe if used as part of normal retraining (I understand sorcerer's can change their spells when levelling).
This was intended more for arcane prepared spellcasters. So instead of X time, X resources, X method (really wish we had rules for ingame spell research rather than out of game spell balancing) you cast wish (including 25k diamond) and create a scroll/other of arcane cure light wounds/saltbolt/lighnting ball/other you can then scribe into your spellbook for future use (Deciphering checks as normal may apply on GM discretion).
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Hmmm I didn't realize those existed thanks. So . . .
1) Cost is 100 x spell level (That seems low as even a 9th level is less than a masterwork weapon). Check material component is 25 times a 9th level spells cost.
2) Time is 7 days times spell level so 3.5 for a cantrip up to 63 or 2 months for a 9th level spell (again seems low to me). No check as wish doesn't really deal with time.
3)Spell Research DC is 10 + 2 x spell level or 11 (cantrip) to 28 (9th level) (Everything feels low to me at the high end). No real check as its outside wishes area but its DC is at least 23 (10 + spell level + ability mod) so . . .close enough for my purposes as you'll usually have a higher than minimum save DC.
4) Make a spellcraft AND a knowledge arcana to get 1 day's of progress with the option of spending magic for +2 to the result no taking 10 . . .well I just found the catch in this system. Seriously to research a cantrip is 8 checks in a row and EACH check that fails by 5 or more is -1 day?
Researching a 9th level spell is ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX checks at a mininimum and if you roll 5 below that goes up. I know spell research isn't meant to be easy but seriously 2 checks per day? Compare this with making a magic item. Work out price, do I have feat, X day's = item/s.
I think looking at this I'd revise it HEAVILY. Up the costs definately, probably vary the times, maybe leave the DC alone if your keeping the no taking 10 (outside library boost) situation and definately change those check results at a minimum the progress/check rate would be changed and the failure cost probably increased to failing by at least 10 for lack of progress. Hmmm I'll play around with this and post some house rules in a few day's.
You could attempt to, but the GM is the final arbiter of how that wish is fulfilled.
The GM is also the final arbiter of how spell research is done.
So if your GM isn't willing to let you research a spell, they're probably not going to allow Wish to do it either.
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Hmmm I didn't realize those existed thanks. So . . .
1) Cost is 100 x spell level (That seems low as even a 9th level is less than a masterwork weapon). Check material component is 25 times a 9th level spells cost.
Beside that a masterwork weapon costs less than 900 gp, I think you missed a "small" thing:
RESEARCH A SPELL
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
1. Pay 100 gp × the spell’s level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
2. Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
3. Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell’s level.
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day’s progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
That "each day" part change the cost.
As written a cantrip costs 100 gp x 0.5x4 days = 200 gp
A 9th level spell 100 gp x 9 x 63 days = 56,700 gp if you never fail the check.
Certainly feasible (and at the level at which you will research a 9th level spell a spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana check with a DC of 28 is an automatic success even with a 1 (at least for an intelligence-based spellcaster), but the cost in time and money isn't negligible even for a high-level character.
About the original question, no, RAW you can't. You are duplicating a spell, not getting it or casting it. Essentially your wish is generating an effect that duplicates the effect of the spell, but you never see the spell being cast, even less receiving it.
As a GM I will allow it with some limitation, i.e. you don't get rare or racial spells only because the player has read in a book that they exist, probably I will limit the spell level to 4th level and you will never create a new spell, essentially the wish would teleport a few pages of a spellbook or a scroll of the appropriate spell from some source in the game world. Generally, it will simply be the nearer and less guarded version of the spell (whatever cost less energy to fulfill the wish), but if it was granted by creatures that have a habit of twisting wishes it could have some problem.
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People certainly seem interested in twisting the wish to hurt you surprising considering it costs you 25 thousand gold per casting.
Hmmm I didn't realize those existed thanks. So . . .
1) Cost is 100 x spell level (That seems low as even a 9th level is less than a masterwork weapon). Check material component is 25 times a 9th level spells cost.
Beside that a masterwork weapon costs less than 900 gp, I think you missed a "small" thing:
RESEARCH A SPELL
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
1. Pay 100 gp × the spell’s level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
2. Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
3. Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell’s level.
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day’s progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.That "each day" part change the cost.
As written a cantrip costs 100 gp x 0.5x4 days = 200 gp
A 9th level spell 100 gp x 9 x 63 days = 56,700 gp if you never fail the check.Certainly feasible (and at the level at which you will research a 9th level spell a spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana check with a DC of 28 is an automatic success even with a 1 (at least for an intelligence-based spellcaster), but the cost in time and money isn't negligible even for a high-level character.
About the original question, no, RAW you can't. You are duplicating a spell, not getting it or casting it. Essentially...
My copy doesn't mention per day its just a flat 100 x spell level.
You're right about masterworks being 300 I could have sworn that was 1000 + weapon cost.
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My copy doesn't mention per day its just a flat 100 x spell level.
From what I recall it has been there in every printing of the nook and in AoN too.
Look the bolded part:
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
You repeat the step each day, including paying 100 gp x level of the spell.
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Why would you change that?
You are literally creating a brand new spell out of thin air, it's not supposed to be cheap.
Also, you can use more of the downtime rules to first earn Magic capital and effectively reduce the price by half by spending more time working on it.
Sorry that wasn't clear. My main issue is with the research times which I feel is too short (3 day's for a cantrip, 2 months + failed rolls for a 9th level spell), I'm actually ok with the costs after my error was pointed out. However I want to increase those times but if I do that I need to change the costs or rather how they're calculated as well otherwise they move out of proportion daily payment for a 63 day research fine, daily payment for a multi-year research project gets too expensive.
For example at the moment I'm dabbling with research time is 7 weeks rather than day's times spell level. Reducing the checks to every month minimum 2, maybe allowing a bonus if using nearby research resources e.g. an arcane library and that would require the payments go to weekly payments rather than daily. This also means the number of checks drops to a quarter at 32 rather than 126 which would be a lot less annoying for a player.
Hmmm I didn't realize those existed thanks. So . . .
1) Cost is 100 x spell level (That seems low as even a 9th level is less than a masterwork weapon). Check material component is 25 times a 9th level spells cost.
2) Time is 7 days times spell level so 3.5 for a cantrip up to 63 or 2 months for a 9th level spell (again seems low to me). No check as wish doesn't really deal with time.
3)Spell Research DC is 10 + 2 x spell level or 11 (cantrip) to 28 (9th level) (Everything feels low to me at the high end). No real check as its outside wishes area but its DC is at least 23 (10 + spell level + ability mod) so . . .close enough for my purposes as you'll usually have a higher than minimum save DC.
4) Make a spellcraft AND a knowledge arcana to get 1 day's of progress with the option of spending magic for +2 to the result no taking 10 . . .well I just found the catch in this system. Seriously to research a cantrip is 8 checks in a row and EACH check that fails by 5 or more is -1 day?Researching a 9th level spell is ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX checks at a mininimum and if you roll 5 below that goes up. I know spell research isn't meant to be easy but seriously 2 checks per day? Compare this with making a magic item. Work out price, do I have feat, X day's = item/s.
I think looking at this I'd revise it HEAVILY. Up the costs definately, probably vary the times, maybe leave the DC alone if your keeping the no taking 10 (outside library boost) situation and definately change those check results at a minimum the progress/check rate would be changed and the failure cost probably increased to failing by at least 10 for lack of progress. Hmmm I'll play around with this and post some house rules in a few day's.
The OP is talking about getting a scroll to learn a spell. Therefore he is talking about a prepared caster. They are usually Int* based. If you are researching a 9th level spell, you have a 19 or better Int, and your skill in Knowledge(Arcana) with 1 rank is at least 8, and Spellcraft is at least 8. You also have the spell Tears to Wine, which at the level you have, give you +10 to each of these. There are a number of ways to buff the skills.
The standard research rules for Creating a Spell have a DC of 38 for both checks each week for 4 weeks. This modified by the following:
Condition | DC Modifier
Caster already knows a similar spell | -2
Per material component required | -2 (maximum -6)
Focus required | -2 to -5 based on cost and rarity
No verbal component | +10
No somatic component | +5
Additional research materials | -1 per 100 gp per spell level maximum +5)
They are also allowed two assistants to aid him, for a bonus +4 on his check. Add in the Tears to Wine spell, his base checks will be 22+1d20 vs DC 38. So he needs a 15 or better. If he puts full ranks in the skills, this DC is automatic. Also, the cost is 9,000 gp unless is is a particularly exotic spell.
The Downtime Research a Spell
gives a different set of rules you can use. They have a lower DC of 28. While the cost is 100*SL*Days=56,700 gp and takes 63 days. Making the DC at min ranks and Tears to Wine is 18+1d20 vs DC 28. So he needs a 10 or better. If he puts full ranks in the skills, this DC is automatic.
As a GM, I would say a Wish would allow you to sub for the research and so add the spell to your spellbook, subject to being able to pass the check and covering the cost. If you use the CRB rules, the cost is covered, but the check is harder. If you use the Downime rules, the check is easy, but you need to provide the cost (56,700 gp) since Wish won't cover values greater than 25,000 gp.
I would even let Limited Wish handle this, with the same constraints.
The way I see it, the [Limited] Wish is compressing the time factor, and maybe paying the cost (if using CRB rules).
Either way, the checks should be near automatic if they bother to have a good amount of ranks in those skills. It can be automatic if they have full ranks. If you don't have full ranks, why are you researching a 9th level spell?
/cevah
*If they are not Int based, they have at worst an Int of 5 [-3]. With 1 rank, that gets a skill of at least 1. At full ranks, the skill is at least 17. Full ranks and Tears to Wine has a skill of at least 27. Two assistants under the CRB gets 31+1d20 vs. DC 38. Need a roll of 7 or better. Using the table, they can add 2 material components and one focus and make it automatic. Or they could get bonuses to the skill like an Armillary Amulet for +5 Spellcraft. Downtime gets 27+1d20 vs. DC 28. Automatic success.