If I'm playing a Tengu that opted claws instead of swordtrained, giving me a bite and 2 claw nat attacks, do I maintain those when I change to the "resembling a raven" form from the Raven Form feat, since that form would still allow me claw and bite attacks? Do I only maintain the bite attack? If I maintain the bite attack do I just make the necessary size increase to damage dice of my current bite attack, or do I use the base damage for a bite attack on a large creature from the natural attack template?
Sorry, per polymorph rules, you lose any natural attacks your base form has. The exception is temporary natural attacks from class features like Sorcerer Bloodlines/etc because you can just use the class feature after you polymorph.
Strictly speaking as Firebug said, you would lose the natural attacks you have in your normal form. However, you would gain any natural attacks the new form has. So, if the bird you're turning into normally has a bite attack and 2 claw attacks you would gain these regardless of what natural attacks you have in your normal form.
The damage of these new attacks would be based on the creature you've turned into and would have no bearing on what your attacks normally do. That being said, any feats you have would still apply in both forms. So, If you had the feat Improved natural attack[bite]. Your bite attack in both forms would be treated as one size category larger.
The transformation works as Beast Shape II. Since the feat does not specify the stats for a specific creature, you can pick any one you want as long as it is a Large bird. For example, you can choose the Giant Falcon to have bite/talon/talon natural attacks.
Gray Warden wrote: The transformation works as Beast Shape II. Since the feat does not specify the stats for a specific creature, you can pick any one you want as long as it is a Large bird. For example, you can choose the Giant Falcon to have bite/talon/talon natural attacks. This is more along the idea of what I was asking, I just did a poor job asking it. I had left out the idea that it doesn't specify what new form you turn into beyond "Large Bird" and "resembles a raven", so the natural attacks you end up with is still pretty obscure. If I get to pick the bird though, Giant Falcon it is. A shame I can't grab its rend ability though.
I was worried you'd end up with using a Large modified Giant Raven for the natural attacks and be left off worse than in my humanoid form.
So here's my next question... per the polymorph rules "you also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function."
If I'm a Draconic Bloodrager/DragonDisciple and I polymorph via Tengu Raven Form, then activate my claw abilities, would the claws grow at my Talons, effectively replacing them, or could I grow claws at the ends of my wings and become a Bird/Dragon hybrid abomination (since the bite attack I gain from DD is better than from the polymorph, I assume that the Raven's beak/maw would grow teeth and become more dragon-like in nature as well).
I mean, the way I read it you would take the base raven(not giant) and just make it large sized (applying the bonuses from beast shape 2 and the feat). So 1 attack(bite) and low light vision from the base creature, and fly 60(good) and ability scores from the feat. So yes, worse off than humanoid form (other than flight). But that's the case with most racial shape-changing abilities. I mean, look at Fox Shape (though there are dex based corner cases).
As far as claws on talons go, there was some faq or rules clarification (maybe dealing with Eidolons) that you essentially get 1 attack per limb with natural attacks. Gore/Bite might have been different since I think there are a couple creatures with both gore and bite. So, unless it is a quadruped bird, you get only 2 attacks from limbs.
Firebug wrote: So, unless it is a quadruped bird, you get only 2 attacks from limbs. Wings are considered limbs universally in the study of animal anatomy, so unless Paizo has said something specific about that...
In fact, with animals that have powerful enough wings, there are even wing attacks in pathfinder... If I can grow dragon-like claws out of my hands as a humanoid, I don't see it much more far-fetched that the same magic could grow dragon claws at the end of a wing bone structure (especially since there are numerous birds historically that have "claws" at the ends of their wings).
Not definitive, but can you show me an existing creature in a bestiary that has claws on its wings?
Just from animals there are the advanced giant bat, the Deinonychus, and snarks. I'm sure there are other magical beasts and such that probably have them. Probably a couple monstrous humanoids. Probably a couple fey
Deinonychus is interesting because it has 'foreclaws' which are an ill-defined game term. From what I can tell, they function similar to 'talons' on some bird type creatures and are used in tandem. Ie in this case a Secondary (not Primary) single attack but 2 limbs. It is also the only creature that has them as a listed attack. Ketesthius pops up in search for 'foreclaws' but only in the fluff text (and referring to its actual claw attacks).
I couldn't find an advanced giant bat on d20 or nethys, so link? Dire Bats just have a bite attack.
Snarks are listed as "Their wings feature dexterous little hands to pick at fruit, nuts, and the occasional shiny object." which to me sounds like the claws are on their feet.
None of them are birds. Temporary claws from class features still require suitable limbs (i.e. arms) to be used: since you cannot grow claws on your feet while in humanoid form, I am pretty confident on the fact that you cannot either grow them on your wings while in bird shape.
Yeah pathfinder doesn’t seem to have any that I can find, the bat was a misread on my part. That’s incredibly surprising though since animals with claws on the ends of wings exist and did exist in real life, as well as an abundance of them in mythology. I don’t feel like digging through every single monstrous humanoid/magical beast or other cases to find any. So what would you say is the intent of that line in the polymorph entry?
"you also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.”
I mean, to me it’s irrelevant if the animal could normally grow them, given this rule. If I had to shape into an animal able to have claws, then it would still be dependent on form, which this says it’s not... I mean, there’s tons of polymorph abilities. If I turn into a snake, this line says that my bloodline claws ability would still function, because it’s not dependent on form. It’s literally magic.
Tengu Raven Form says you transform into a Large Black Bird resembling a Raven.
You clearly don't turn into a Raven because Ravens are Size Tiny, and you don't turn into a Giant Raven because they are Size Medium.
You must be turning into some other kind of bird that is Large, black, and resembles a Raven.
The description of the Feat does not say what kind of natural attacks the Raven-resembling, Large bird has. I guess you have to look through the lists of Birds in the Bestiary and pick the Large Bird that is most raven-like?
It could be that you just pick any Large Bird that you want, and whatever stat block it has, it "resembles a raven."
Firebug's idea would be a reasonable adjudication, but it's no more RAW than any other interpretation.
I guess another way to look at things is to do a survey of large birds and see what kinds of attacks those birds have, and that might give us insight into the Raven-Form's Full Attack. The example that comes into my head is that there are different sizes of Octopus, and even though they all have 8 tentacles and a beak, they all have different Full Attacks. My point is that it might be the case that all Size Large Birds that are omnivorous or carnivorous have talon and beak attacks, and if that's the case, then so should the Ravenform.
Sorcerer's claws work while polymorphed the same way they would work if you were not polymorphed. An arm-less sorcerer could still activate the claws class feature, but he would have no suitable limbs to put them on.
So yeah, you can't get claws on a snake. It's literally logic. And since magic still has to obey to some internal logic, logic beats magic every time.
Unless you can find a ruling saying that, it’s not RAW. Because the rule is that this ability works regardless of form... So unless there’s something else written stating otherwise, the magic creates whatever it needs to make it happen.
And I believe this ability functions identically if you’re a deformed/handicapped sorcerer... Do you think the claw attack you get is your fingernails growing slightly? It’s not. It’s a supernatural and magical physiological change, the same way changing your entire body into a dragon via form of the dragon is. Could someone who had their hand amputated still use this ability? What about 3/4 of the way up their firearm? What about your whole arm being gone? I believe it still functions, and you grow two sets of claws however the magic has to make it work. It’s magic, and magic beats logic every time. Because it’s magic and necessarily works outside our natural laws which is the basis for all logic.
It’s insane that it’s that difficult to grasp when there is magic in this game that can turn a pebble into an intelligent being for a limited time. Or I’m sorry, do you have a logical explanation for that? Imagine.
Can you get claws on your feet? No, you cannot, and yet this limitation does not make you cry "iT's MaGiC".
If you cannot get claws on fully formed limbs such as legs, why would you even consider the idea of getting claws on wings or even when not having forelimbs at all?
Rules tell you what you can do, not what you cannot, and Sorcerer's claws do not say they come with a suitable appendage (unlike, say, the 10th level Evangelist perk). So, either you have suitable appendages in the first place, or you don't get any claws. Wings and legs do not constitute suitable appendages for claws, let alone not having arms at all.
It's insane that it's that difficult to grasp such a simple syllogism.
On the original topic, "resembling a raven" sounds to me like you gain all non-size-related effects of the spell as if you turned into a raven, while using the stated size instead of the regular one.
RAWmonger wrote: Unless you can find a ruling saying that, it’s not RAW. It is indeed something not really adressed by the written rules. The main issue is that many natural attack granting options don't explain the 'how' and 'where' of these natural weapons. The intend behind claw growing options is presumably always that your fingernails grow. This isn't explicitly said, though, and as usually, Paizo's ridiculously over-anthrocentric writing produces problems, e.g. there's nothing RAW preventing a Druid/Barbarian polymorphed into an octopus to grow claws on tentacles. But even for humans, the only actual rules regarding placement we have is this FAQ, which is still vague enough, and has the extra weirdness that technically it doesn't apply to anything without exactly two arms and two legs (like, say, a kasatha).
Of course, there is a lot of strong implications here, and while I'm a strong supporter of "use RAW as long as they work", this is one of these cases where the game breaks down when you do so.
Likewise, there is the implication that attacks use the respective body part which then becomes unable for other natural weapons (not counting Haste et al.). The only actual rule about that is that you can't use the same limb for both a manufactured weapon attack and a natural attack, again, the anthrocentric writing rears its ugly head. This gets really ambiguous when you realize that a) a slam/claw combo might actually be possible as part of the same movement (slam as a punch, claw when drawing the hand back), and that using a head for both bite and gore is actually quite common. And then we have the two different types of gore (tusks and horns), which may or may not be intended to stack; and the tusk-gore + bite combination, which is even used by a published monsters and really muddles the water.
@Gray Warden: Some bird have spurs on their wings, which are basically single claws. Young hoatzin have two claws per wing which they climb with.
The sorcerer ability says you grow claws. The polymorph rules say this ability works regardless of your current form. The ability can’t both function and not function simultaneously, therefore it functions... because the rules say it functions.
No point trying to argue it further. The same bloodline eventually let’s you breath fire, even though you had no physiological way to do it before, grow wings, even though you didn’t have any vestigial wings before or even a bone structure or muscle groupings that would facilitate the growing of wings, and also gives you thickened skin and dragon immunities (if you’re a dragon disciple I believe you even start to grow scales).
But obviously “logic” prohibits the idea that your Draconic claws could be created at any place that didn’t already have hands... even though no other power granted by your bloodline needed your current physiology to match.
RAWmonger wrote: The sorcerer ability says you grow claws. The polymorph rules say this ability works regardless of your current form. And the linked FAQ says "If you are a bipedal creature (...), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part." As the FAQ later uses the term "flying bipedal creature" to describe "giant eagle or harpy", the raven form in question does count as "a bipedal creature".
There you have it. You could still use Animal Fury to add a bite attack to your ass (Nothing says a bite attack gained from Animal Fury has to use your mouth!) if you don't think that's utterly stupid, but for anything biped, you need hands to add claws. Of course, nothing explicitly written limits you to one claw per hand, so I guess you're fine with Barbarians using Lesser Abyssal/Draconic Blood and Lesser Beast Totem at the same time, maybe even in addition to Shifter's Claws, Vigilante's Tiger Claws, and Feral Mutagen?
I agree that most of those examples would be against the intent, and wouldn’t work because of other rulings, but then how do you reconcile that FAQ with the fact that the rules tell you that the sorcerer Draconic claws abilities functions regardless of form, if you then insist that the form you take can make that ability *not* function. Even though it *literally and explicitly* says it still functions. The FAQ and the polymorph rules are 100% contradictory, one says your form effects your ability to grow claws, and the other says your form does not effect your ability to grow claws.
Later beats earlier, and specific beats general.
What the CRB talks about is the difference between permanent and temporary abilities - a tengu with the Claw Attack alternate racial trait would lose the claws when using Alter Self to turn into an elf, but a Sorcerer can still use the ability after doing that. This is all the rule intends to say.
There is a bunch of stuff deliberately left out of the CRB because the writers consider it "common sense" (search James Jacobs' posts for that phrase to see what I'm talking about), sadly, not all of these things are actually clear. Once of these unclear things is the placement of temporary natural attacks, which was the topic of my second-to-last post (which was copied from another thread, incidentally).
Related things where you need to have common sense overturn the exact written rules: Polymorph rules talk about polymorph spells only, strict RAW, as a supernatural ability, Wild Shape does not use the polymorph rules, even though those rules name drop the ability (hope you weren't hungry before turning into an Int 2 dire tiger!). Also, you get all a forms natural attack when polymorphing into it, in addition to what the spell says, which makes spells that list granted natural attacks (e.g. Form of the Dragon and Undead Anatomy) grant both the ones in the stat block and the listed ones.
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