Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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The rules state that:
If you have an item, you can try to reverse-engineer its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the same amount of time as creating the item from a formula would. You must first disassemble the item. After the base downtime, you attempt a Crafting check against the same DC it would take to Craft the item. If you succeed, you Craft the formula at its full Price, and you can keep working to reduce the Price as normal. If you fail, you’re left with raw materials and no formula. If you critically fail, you also waste 10% of the raw materials you’d normally be able to salvage.
However, we don't get to keep anything we find. We just get the gold, and the opportunity to buy the item. So let's say that I find an uncommon level 0 weapon in the adventure, and because I'm a crafter, I want to save some gold to craft it myself.
How this should work: I disassemble the weapon, pay half of the cost, roll to craft, succeed, spend extra days to reduce the price of the other half of the cost, and I now have the formula. After the next scenario, I spend my downtime to begin (and possibly finishing) crafting my weapon.
Problems: We don't get to keep the items we find. Downtime comes after the adventure. I don't thus actually have the weapon when my downtime begins, so how can I disassemble it? What happens if we have two crafters and both want to disassemble the item to learn the formula? If I fail and lose the weapon, am I out of luck or can I try again?
A logical solution would be that since we just found it, I can disassemble it "at the end of the scenario" when rolling for downtime, before we return all the loot to the grand lodge. But what if I had some other crafting or downtime activity (retraining) in progress? Can I start disassembling this item we found, not immediately afterwards, but let's say, two scenarios later?
Or is the only way to learn the formula, to buy the weapon at full price, then scrap the weapon by disassembling it to learn the formula to craft it again (costly and pointless)?
In short: For the purposes of learning formulas, should we be considered having access to items that are on the chronicle sheet for the purpose of disassembly and reverse engineering?
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So, like, a line of text added to the Guide that reads something to the effect of:
"You may also purchase or craft the formulas of any items you have access to on your Chronicle Sheets."
I think that's short enough and to the point. But are their any potential downsides to opening that up? Can formulas be shared between PCs? What if the item was unique, or had a limit on the amount you could buy?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Crafting says they can be shared (and it doesn't even cost anything, I've been told), but I believe that the normal restrictions of access still applies: That is, if I find an uncommon item, and my sheet grants access to it (by mentioning it in the items section), you can't copy the formula (or can, but can't actually make the item) unless you also have access to that item.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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While we're at crafting:
Guide says:
unlike Earning Income, Crafting tasks can be continued across as many Downtime days as necessary until the item is completed or you pay the remainder of the Price required to finish the item.
Does this mean that I can roll once, and then benefit from the critical success I happened to roll for the next 45 days (the downtime of several scenarios) as I work to complete my expensive magical item, or do I still need to roll in blocks of 8 days?
In either case, Guide should probably specify if you need to roll in blocks of 8, or if you don't, it probably needs to say that you should have the GM record the result of your roll so that you can continue using it until the item is complete.
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While we're at crafting:
Guide says:
unlike Earning Income, Crafting tasks can be continued across as many Downtime days as necessary until the item is completed or you pay the remainder of the Price required to finish the item.Does this mean that I can roll once, and then benefit from the critical success I happened to roll for the next 45 days (the downtime of several scenarios) as I work to complete my expensive magical item, or do I still need to roll in blocks of 8 days?
In either case, Guide should probably specify if you need to roll in blocks of 8, or if you don't, it probably needs to say that you should have the GM record the result of your roll so that you can continue using it until the item is complete.
I believe you are correct. I just needs to be noted on the chronicle when you make the roll.
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Disassembling found items to create a formula probably needs to be disallowed. Otherwise we end up needing to create a whole bunch of clarifications for potential edge cases. You touched on most of them but I'll list them again:
1. If you fail and destroy the item without learning the formula, how would it make sense to still have access to the item?
2. Or for the other players at the table to have access?
3. What if two players want to disassemble the item?
All of these can be solved by simply saying "ignore the logic of it being a single item" but I'm not a fan of that.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Disassembling found items to create a formula probably needs to be disallowed. Otherwise we end up needing to create a whole bunch of clarifications for potential edge cases. You touched on most of them but I'll list them again:
1. If you fail and destroy the item without learning the formula, how would it make sense to still have access to the item?
2. Or for the other players at the table to have access?
3. What if two players want to disassemble the item?All of these can be solved by simply saying "ignore the logic of it being a single item" but I'm not a fan of that.
All of these are already an issue as you still get access to consumables you found, even if you use them in the course of the scenario. And sundering hasn't come up much in PFS2, but in PFS1 you still got access if the item got sundered or otherwise destroyed.
Note that item access on the chronicle is not necessarily "you kept the item." It is you have demonstrated that you can handle the item responsibly, so people are (more) willing to make it for you / sell it to you.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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By the way, from the discord, from Tonya
Dayjob Update: Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit. Field Agents who do the Earned Income activity in multiple Downtime Units make an Earned Income roll for each Downtime Unit. If the Downtime Unit is less than 8 days, as in the case of Quests, rolls will apply to the number of days associated with that type of adventure. Also, unless a scenario calls out using alternative skills for earn income, the player is limited to the CRB ones. This is in support of the alternate rules/GM adjucations are not used in Org Play baseline.
So, downtime unit is up to 8 days long regardless of activity, roll once per unit of downtime. -> Crafting is rolled once per unit of downtime, as is every other activity, instead of "roll once, use result until item is ready"
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By the way, from the discord, from Tonya
Dayjob Update: Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit. Field Agents who do the Earned Income activity in multiple Downtime Units make an Earned Income roll for each Downtime Unit. If the Downtime Unit is less than 8 days, as in the case of Quests, rolls will apply to the number of days associated with that type of adventure. Also, unless a scenario calls out using alternative skills for earn income, the player is limited to the CRB ones. This is in support of the alternate rules/GM adjucations are not used in Org Play baseline.So, downtime unit is up to 8 days long regardless of activity, roll once per unit of downtime. -> Crafting is rolled once per unit of downtime, as is every other activity, instead of "roll once, use result until item is ready"
I'm not getting that same reading of now requiring multiple checks for crafting...
"Roll once for each type of check" Continuing crafting does not feature any checks.
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I am not familiar with Discord. Is there a way you can link that quote from Tonya for us who do not frequent the servers.As a VA you should have received an invite after you signed the NDA. Have you signed it?
If you have seen it you need to contact you VC or RVC.
I received the NDA in my downloads. I downloaded and reviewed it. I do not recall any instruction to sign it. However, it has been a couple of years now, and I doubt it is still in my emails. And I definitely do not recall an invite coming afterwards.
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Venture-Captain, Australia—WA—
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I received the NDA in my downloads. I downloaded and reviewed it. I do not recall any instruction to sign it. However, it has been a couple of years now, and I doubt it is still in my emails. And I definitely do not recall an invite coming afterwards.I am not familiar with Discord. Is there a way you can link that quote from Tonya for us who do not frequent the servers.As a VA you should have received an invite after you signed the NDA. Have you signed it?
If you have seen it you need to contact you VC or RVC.
New NDAs are in the process of going out to all VOs. They have not completed the list yet but are working through it and sending invites to the official Discord server once they have the signed document.
Keep a eye out for the invitation. You will also need a code from your RVC.
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I received the NDA in my downloads. I downloaded and reviewed it. I do not recall any instruction to sign it. However, it has been a couple of years now, and I doubt it is still in my emails. And I definitely do not recall an invite coming afterwards.I am not familiar with Discord. Is there a way you can link that quote from Tonya for us who do not frequent the servers.As a VA you should have received an invite after you signed the NDA. Have you signed it?
If you have seen it you need to contact you VC or RVC.
New NDAs are in the process of going out to all VOs. They have not completed the list yet but are working through it and sending invites to the official Discord server once they have the signed document.
Keep a eye out for the invitation. You will also need a code from your RVC.
Okay. I thought I missed something.
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By the way, from the discord, from Tonya
Dayjob Update: Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit. Field Agents who do the Earned Income activity in multiple Downtime Units make an Earned Income roll for each Downtime Unit. If the Downtime Unit is less than 8 days, as in the case of Quests, rolls will apply to the number of days associated with that type of adventure. Also, unless a scenario calls out using alternative skills for earn income, the player is limited to the CRB ones. This is in support of the alternate rules/GM adjucations are not used in Org Play baseline.So, downtime unit is up to 8 days long regardless of activity, roll once per unit of downtime. -> Crafting is rolled once per unit of downtime, as is every other activity, instead of "roll once, use result until item is ready"I'm not getting that same reading of now requiring multiple checks for crafting...
"Roll once for each type of check" Continuing crafting does not feature any checks.
I concur with Rob.
That would make long-term Crafting unviable. Say you required six sessions of Crafting to complete your item, and Crit failed on the last one.
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By the way, from the discord, from Tonya
Dayjob Update: Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit. Field Agents who do the Earned Income activity in multiple Downtime Units make an Earned Income roll for each Downtime Unit. If the Downtime Unit is less than 8 days, as in the case of Quests, rolls will apply to the number of days associated with that type of adventure. Also, unless a scenario calls out using alternative skills for earn income, the player is limited to the CRB ones. This is in support of the alternate rules/GM adjucations are not used in Org Play baseline.So, downtime unit is up to 8 days long regardless of activity, roll once per unit of downtime. -> Crafting is rolled once per unit of downtime, as is every other activity, instead of "roll once, use result until item is ready"I'm not getting that same reading of now requiring multiple checks for crafting...
"Roll once for each type of check" Continuing crafting does not feature any checks.
I concur with Rob.
That would make long-term Crafting unviable. Say you required six sessions of Crafting to complete your item, and Crit failed on the last one.
That is how I have been doing it as well. In the CRB under crafting, you only roll once for the entire project, after the first four days of crafting.
I think the 8 day block is only for using downtime to earn income.
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The 8 day block is for everything. Now, I don’t have an educated opinion on crafting yet, but assuming the 1-roll per project is correct, the 8 day block would still apply. Your item isn’t done/discounted until you’ve spend the requisite number of days, however many sessions that takes. E.g. you can’t finish a 10 day project in one session’s worth of downtime. Assuming that’s what you were talking about.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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In that case the the first line seems pretty weird.
"Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit."
Emphasis on the "regardless what activities" and "rolls once for each type of check".
Although, I hadn't thought about what happens if you succeed couple of times and then crit fail at the end. In that light, rolling once for crafting makes more sense from mechanics point of view, but in that case it does need clarification on the guide, to note down your result when you start crafting.
Also, if you start crafting and roll a success, but then gain a level before the item is complete, do you now gain discount on the item based on your new level's "gold per day", or based on what your "gold per day" was when you made the check?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I don't understand the clarification or what it really clarifies.
Dayjob Update: Downtime Units are up to 8 days long, regardless of what activities occur or how many days of each type of activity a PC engages in. Rolls happen at the end of each Downtime Unit and a PC rolls once for each type of check that occurred in the Downtime Unit. Field Agents who do the Earned Income activity in multiple Downtime Units make an Earned Income roll for each Downtime Unit. If the Downtime Unit is less than 8 days, as in the case of Quests, rolls will apply to the number of days associated with that type of adventure. Also, unless a scenario calls out using alternative skills for earn income, the player is limited to the CRB ones. This is in support of the alternate rules/GM adjucations are not used in Org Play baseline.
Suppose I'm a field-commissioned agent playing a scenario. I get 12 days of downtime, which makes for two units of 8 and 4, right?
Now I start by retraining a spell, which the Guide says takes 7 days. After that I'll spend the remaining 5 days on Earn Income.
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings for that block of Downtime.
So is my Earn Income task spread over one or two blocks? Do I make one roll (for 1 day) and another roll (for 4 days), or do I just roll once (for all 5 days, because 5 < 8)?
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Okay, now I remember where I've seen this discussion before.
Yes, I believe your example of (7+1)+(4) is currently correct.
And see, when I read Field Commissioned, I want to interpret it as replacing 8 with 12. That would actually make it desirable, and would help keep rewards in line with the extra consumable you get from focusing on one School.
I think the best way to get everyone on the same page with Downtime would be to list all of the possible combinations as examples that players can reference easily.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Yeah until this Discord hand-me-down ruling I was under the impression that the procedure was:
- Do all non-Earn Income stuff
- Spend your remaining time on Earn Income, trying to do as many neat 8-day blocks with a single check per block
- And then one last Earn Income check for any less-than-8-days remainder.
The Discord ruling strikes me a bit as a "don't have my books at hand right now" answer to a Crafting question because it actually goes against how the CRB does Crafting. While for Earn Income it makes a lot of sense to have periodic checks, Crafting is the opposite.
Since it's so confusing, maybe it would be better to go over it again before officially adding this ruling into the Guide?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I admit I'm now more confused than before. Crafting needs a clarification.
In the event that you roll just once, what happens if you gain a level after you started crafting but before you have finished? Do you continue to discount the item at the "gp per day" you had when you made the roll, or is it adjusted to your new level/level of proficiency?
Going from 9 SP per day (for trained, level 5) to 2gp per day (expert, level 6) is a huge improvement.
I think "roll once, apply until the item is complete" is problematic because things like rolling a crit success, might affect your choice of skill increase/feat if you gain a level before that craft is complete, depending on how the results is applied.
On the other hand, roll multiple times goes against CRB and is problematic when you roll a fail or crit fail after you've already started working on the item.
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On the other hand, roll multiple times goes against CRB and is problematic when you roll a fail or crit fail after you've already started working on the item.
So playing devil's advocate, "stuff" can happen while working on something. Sometimes it is bad "stuff".. and it is a set back.
Anyone who has watched Forged in Fire has seen setbacks....
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The relevant quote is:
For each additional day you spend, reduce
the value of the materials you need to expend to complete
the item. This amount is determined using Table 4–2: Income
Earned (page 236), based on your proficiency rank in Crafting
and using your own level instead of a task level.
Its a bit ambiguous, IMO, as to whether 'your own level' is your level at the time of the check, or at the time of the spent downtime. I'd generally lean towards the latter, but can see both sides.
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And is there any link to this clarification from Tonya that is publicly available (not in an off-site VO board)?
Which quote? I believe it was Michael that clarified Earn Income. I think that should be in the guide by now.
The Tonya quote seems to have been more aimed at Earn Income and likely precedes Michael's public clarification.
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The relevant quote is:
For each additional day you spend, reduce the value of the materials you need to expend to complete the item. This amount is determined using Table 4–2: Income Earned (page 236), based on your proficiency rank in Crafting and using your own level instead of a task level.Its a bit ambiguous, IMO, as to whether 'your own level' is your level at the time of the check, or at the time of the spent downtime. I'd generally lean towards the latter, but can see both sides.
Anything written can indeed be interpreted in a number of ways.
If it was the former, nobody would continue Crafting into their new level.
And it's much easier to figure out how much you're reducing the total cost by, rather than thinking back to exactly when you started Crafting.
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I believe it's in the Core Rulebook, but I don't have a copy saved on my phone and my computer at home is currently in pieces.You do adjust your Crafting reduction according to your new level, but not on the Chronicle that you level up.Is there any link for that?
It is not exactly specified. The CRB assumes that any downtime activities are done as one block (not split up between adventures). If you’re crafting an item you finish it - one way or the other - before you go out on your next adventure. Here’s part of the example of Ezren crafting from page 245.
However, Ezren has 10 more days on his hands, so he decides to spend additional time to complete the item. Because he’s a 5th-level character and an expert at Crafting, he reduces the amount he has to pay by 1 gp for each day spent. After spending 10 days working, he reduces the cost to complete the item from 65 gp to 55 gp. He spends the remaining portion of its Price in materials, completes the striking rune, and goes out on his next adventure. (He could have stayed home to keep working on the striking rune, eventually reducing the item’s total Price to just the half he paid up front, but adventuring is far more lucrative!)
You could read that as “the amount of daily progress is set when you first roll” or “the amount of daily progress depends on your level when you are working.” Because splitting the task across multiple sessions is codified for PFS, there needs to be a PFS-specific clarification.