A somewhat silly circumstance regarding Downtime


Pathfinder Society

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Just finished my first Quest, The Sandstone Secret, and we looked to see how many days of Downtime we're allowed. Quests grant 2 days of Downtime. Since you need 8 days of Downtime in order to roll a Day Job check Earn Income, it would appear you cannot Earn Income after completing a Quest.

But then the Guide goes on to explain that "For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income".

So all you need to Earn Income is 1 day of Downtime, but even if you have 2 days available, you can't roll your check, because you didn't start with 8.

I understand the why, both mechanically and philosophically, but I foresee eyerolls when I explain it to new players (or even veterans who hate this sort of mental acrobatics).

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Im 99% sure you don't need 8 days and it's just not worded well.

Those 2 days are the only days available in your 8 day block. So roll earn income once and multiply by 2.

There's no other explination that possibly makes sense.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

4 people marked this as a favorite.

This is being discussed in various places, I'm hoping the language in the Guide can be updated soon to be clearer.

My take on what it means to say:

Each time you press the "Earn Income" button you spend 8 days working, or less if less days remained in your downtime.

You can't spend more than 8 days working (for example, if the check was really good). If you have more days left after 8 days of work, you can Earn Income again but you have to roll a new check.

You can't spend less than 8 days working (for example, if the check was poor) after you've begun, unless you run out of downtime days.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What Lau said, including the need to rewrite the section in the Guide so it stops confusing people.

The CRB tells you how Earn Income works. The Guide tells you how to determine the task level and caps the number of days per check.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What makes you say that you *don't* need 8 days?

That's the only way I can read it, and that seems to be how other people are reading it.

Complete an AP volume, gain 3 rolls to Earn Income.
Complete a scenario, gain 1 roll to Earn Income.
Complete a Quest, cannot roll to Earn Income.

That's also consistent with how PFS1 worked. You needed to complete an entire Quest series before you could roll your Day Job.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
What makes you say that you *don't* need 8 days?.

10 years of experience reading PFS rules. Guidance from John Compton regarding how to read rules in PFS. A logical approach. Cultural privilege.

There are a bunch of ways to have downtime in chunks other than 8 days.

Field Promotion, Quest, Used days. The rules explicitly talk about used days, but don't cover the other issues.

This leaves us 2 paths for regarding the other ways to get partial days:

1: Being a Field Promoted Agent is largely a trap. Those 4 days you get are bad unless you're a serious crafter or need a lot of retraining.

2: Every 8 day section of downtime you have that you want to earn income in requires a roll. Then multiply your earnings by actual days available. It doesn't matter if you have less days because you spent them, or you never had a multiple of 8 to start with.

That said I follow that a literal reading gets us to 1. I just don't believe it's the correct reading.

Also note downtime must be spent immediately or be lost. Even if you played 4 quests in a row you'd never have 8 days of downtime at once.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
What makes you say that you *don't* need 8 days?

The CRB disagrees with that interpretation.

I know that OPF occasionally changes things to allow that they would otherwise not allow, but 1. that's a pretty big change in the mechanic laid out by the CRB and 2. we know that they worked with the design team on this stuff specifically, so it wouldn't make sense that they would need to change the mechanics.

CRB says you can Earn Income in 1 day, you make a check, and you can keep that check for as many days as you want to continue earning an income.

OPF caps it at 8 days per check.

Downtime can't be saved up. It's use it or lose it.

So, giving Quests 2 days of Downtime would serve no purpose if not to Earn Income.

Also Quests are now meant to stand alone. There are no "series" to complete. You do one, and you earn 1 XP, 1 to 2 Fame, and 2 Downtime days. You never have to do one again. And, as Rob said, you couldn't save up to 8 days by playing 4 Quests anyhow.

2/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This literal reading of a rushed set of organized play rules also means that I can't use downtime for the downtime task of bonding a new animal companion (because the guide only says earn income, crafting, and retrainng), so once my class feature is killed in a game, I can never get a new one.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Nefreet wrote:

What makes you say that you *don't* need 8 days?

That's the only way I can read it, and that seems to be how other people are reading it.

You're technically correct that that is what it currently says, but from various discussions I hear that's not what was intended.

Intended was the use that I described. I expect it to be changed in the near future, when they figure out a wording that's less confusing. Remember that the Guide was a bit of a rush job to get everything in the 80/20 workable zone. Precise wording suffered a bit.

Nefreet wrote:
That's also consistent with how PFS1 worked. You needed to complete an entire Quest series before you could roll your Day Job.

Yeah, that's definitely changed. The intent is that the new quests stand on their own. That's why they now give individual chronicles and XP.

3/5

Yeah, you spend the days you have, max 8. Ascalaphus and Pirate Rob have it right.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
OPF caps it at 8 days per check.

That's the opposite of what it currently states.

As it is currently worded, the minimum is 8 days in order to Earn Income.

I agree that it's currently not possible after playing a Quest. That was the whole point of me posting this thread, because the example of splitting an 8-day unit into a 7/1 spread could confusingly lead someone to believe that all you would need is 1 day to Earn Income.

Robert Hetherington wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
What makes you say that you *don't* need 8 days?.
10 years of experience reading PFS rules. Guidance from John Compton regarding how to read rules in PFS. A logical approach. Cultural privilege.

Rob, since we know each other in person, I'm going to hope this wasn't meant to be insulting.

I have nearly the same length of experience reading rules, listening to guidance from Campaign Leadership, use of "logic" and equal amounts of bearded privilege.

Have you heard someone from Leadership expressing that the system works as you propose? Or is this just a difference in interpretation?

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Have you heard someone from Leadership expressing that the system works as you propose?

I'm neither Rob nor have 10 years of experience with PFS, but, yeah, I have on Day 2 of GenCon.

And then after that face-to-face discussion.

Tonya wrote:
I got it a bit wrong. So correcting my own mini-tutorial now that I have the full info. Calculate character level -2. That is the task level. Look at page 503 in the CRB, table -5, and look at the DCs for your calculated task level. Roll one of the skills under “Earn Income” in the CRB and compare the result to the DC. Go to the chart under Earn Income and find the type of success made. The $ listed is for one day of downtime. Multiple the $ by the number of days they use. A Pathfinder gets 8 days of downtime and they can spend all 8 days earning income and should roll once (one check).

Furthermore, you're not even reading the part that we contest that you're reading wrong the way it's written.

The Guide doesn't say you spend 8 days then make a check, which is how you're reading it and the technical opposite of how I (and the CRB) said it works.

The Guide says, "You can attempt one Earn Income check per 8-day cycle, including when you perform multiple activities during that cycle (example given)." There is no temporality there. No "Roll after 8 days are spent" like Crafting's "Roll after 4 days are spent."

EDIT: The reason it matters is that until they correct their language, if you go with the interpretation that they only want you to be able to use Downtime if you have 8 days of it and short everyone who played the Quest(s), the players can't trek around to find the various GMs who ran it for them to correct it.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
The Guide says, "You can attempt one Earn Income check per 8-day cycle, including when you perform multiple activities during that cycle (example given)."

That's where I'm getting the basis of my interpretation from.

If I can give a baker 8 apples in exchange for a pie, I can't give them 2 apples and expect a pie.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
EDIT: The reason it matters is that until they correct their language, if you go with the interpretation that they only want you to be able to use Downtime if you have 8 days of it and short everyone who played the Quest(s), the players can't trek around to find the various GMs who ran it for them to correct it.

I agree.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

The sidebar in the CRB titled "Harsk Makes Tea" explains it perfectly. (At work so can't offer page #).

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Nefreet wrote:
Rob, since we know each other in person, I'm going to hope this wasn't meant to be insulting.

No insult intended. I've found that I've been socialized as a tall white cis male to believe that I am likely to be right, and not scared of presenting my opinion as fact.

So when you asked how I came to the conclusion that one could could use their downtime from a quest to earn income I thought about how I came to that conclusion and included cultural privilege as one of the factors that lead to my claim, especially since a clear reading of the rules that supports my position is not available.

---

I think we're all in agreement that the rules say 8 day chunks and that one could read it to mean you need 8 days to roll at all.

Based on context and other factors I don't believe that's the correct interpretation of the rules.

I couldn't blame you for reading otherwise based on what the rules say though.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Nefreet wrote:
If I can give a baker 8 apples in exchange for a pie, I can't give them 2 apples and expect a pie.

No, but if you can give a baker 8 apples and get back 8 apple turnovers, you can give them 2 apples and get back 2 apple turnovers.

You’re reading an indivisibility into the 8-day block that doesn’t exist.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Then why have that minimum listed at all?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here’s a real world example from my brother-in-law:

The brewery near his college was pretty big in the area but not a national market name. They had a lot of volume but not enough to fully automate the packaging process. They figured out it was cheaper to pay college students to pack bottles into 6-packs than hire full-time employees. You could basically show up any time you had a free couple of hours, pack bottles, and get paid based on the number of bottles you had done. If that was one day a week or three, the brewery didn’t care.

That’s essentially what earning income in PF2 is like. You show up when you have time. It doesn’t matter if you’ve only got a couple of days or come in eight days in a row. You get paid based on the work you do.

Spoiler:
Yes, since this was the real world there were a bunch of regulations they had to deal with. Everyone had to sign paperwork indicating they were independent contractors, there were maximum hours limitations, and the like.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
Then why have that minimum listed at all?

Because there is no minimum listed.

If I say “for every $30.00 I spend I can get 10 gallons of gas” does that mean I can only get gas by spending integer multiples of $30?

Everyone agrees it could be worded much better. And it will hopefully get changed quickly. But we’ve got multiple eyewitness testimonies that the Paizo/OPF leadership at GenCon said multiple times in multiple ways that the 8-day block was intended to be the standard unit for checks. (So you wouldn’t roll 8 checks for 8 days or one check for the whole 24 days after an AP module.) If you have a block that is less than 8 days, such as after a 2-day Quest, then use the length of that block.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Then why have that minimum listed at all?

As Belafon said, there is no minimum. They list a maximum:

Guide wrote:
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check.

You've interpreted the maximum per Earn Income check to be the minimum.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kevin Willis wrote:
If I say “for every $30.00 I spend I can get 10 gallons of gas” does that mean I can only get gas by spending integer multiples of $30?

The Guide states "8 day unit".

Not, "for every 8 days".

It seems very intentional to state it that way.

None of the quotes provided thus far address that.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Blake's Tiger wrote:
You've interpreted the maximum per Earn Income check to be the minimum.

I honestly do not know what you're referring to.

I've never mentioned maximum, and I don't see any such reference.

3/5

The guide clearly states that you can spend only a single day using Earn Income (such as when retraining for 7 days first).

If you can earn income for a single day, why can't you Earn Income for multiple single days?

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That's the very example I highlight in my original post.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

With 2 days you make your EI check and multiply it by 2. With 8 days you make your EI check and multiply it by 8. It's right there in the last paragraph of "Harsk Makes Tea".

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Paducah aka axian

The Guide wrote:
units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income
The Guide wrote:
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle

The 8 day block of Downtime (for Earned Income) reads pretty clearly to me as a maximum of 8 days, not a minimum of 8 days. Blocking downtime into 8 day (or less) segments is an excellent way of preventing one bad roll from ruining your 24 days of downtime after an AP, or to keep a player from coasting on one good roll for that 24 days.

So for a quest that provides 2 days of Downtime, I have 1 block (2 days) of Downtime I can use. A field-commissioned agent after a scenario has 2 blocks (8 days, 4 days).

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

I am getting more confused...

Let's go over this point by point.

  • 8 days is needed to effect a check for Earned Income.
  • It does not matter what is done during those 8 days, as long as at least one is spent earning income.
  • One can still do other downtime activities during downtime, which any days of downtime can be used for. (Crafting, for example)
  • If one has more than 8 days, some of those days can be used first for other downtime activities
  • If a character gets 16 days of downtime, he will roll twice, once for each 8 day block
  • The roll will earned income for each day spent within the 8 day block Earning Income, a critical success will slide down the chart (+1) to earn the higher income. (5C turns to 2s for 0 sliding to 1 on the trained chart)

This is how I see it as far as what is in the guide and how it is being discussed here.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Sounds right.

Most people in this thread seem to have heard a clarification that point #1 ("8 days is needed to effect a check for Earned Income") is in error, however, and will be changed.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

And answered HERE:

Michael Sayre wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
if you've completed a Quest, which only grants 2 days of Downtime, can you use those 2 days for Earn Income?
The time blocks are in "up to" 8 day units... So if all you have is 2 days, you can Earn Income for just those two days

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / A somewhat silly circumstance regarding Downtime All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.