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So I wanted to get people's thoughts on this build and some advice on other possible options. The idea behind the build is trying to make something that breakers the mold a bit. So without further adieu may I present, the thugbuckler.
Race:
Human
Military Tradition (Broken Back Seax, bolas)
Heart of the Fey
Traits:
Artist of Battle in All Forms (Dirty Trick)
Mock Gladiator
Avarice
Starting stats:
16, 12, 12, 12 ,12,15 (Middle aged age category)
Levels and Feats:
SW: Swashbuckler (Corsair, Noble Fencer)
SY: Slayer (Vanilla)
1: SW1: Dirty Fighting, Level 1 Deeds (Opportune Party, Daring Do, Social Panache)
2: SY1: Studied Target +1, Medium Armor
3: SY2: Improved Dirty Trick, Ranger Combat Style 1 (Enforcer)
4: SY3: Sneak Attack 1d6
5: SW2: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Aristocratic Discipline
6: SW3: Level 3 Deeds (Kip-up, Eye of the Storm, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike)
7: SW4: Greater Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick
8: SW5: Swashbuckler Weapon Training
9: SY4: Power Attack, Slayer Talent(combat reflexes)
10: SY5: Studied Target +2
11: SY6: Ranger Combat Style 2(Shatter Defences), Dirty Trick Master, Sneak Attack 3d6
12: SY7: Stalker, Studied Target as swift action
13: SY8: Dastardly Trick, Slayer Talent (?)
14: SY9: Sneak Attack 4d6
15: SY10: Feat(?), Slayer Talent (Opportunist), Studied Target +3
16-20: SY11-SY15
Skills:
Max ranks in intimidate and perception, the rest scattered as desired. Has most skills as class skills.
Thoughts:
- I know the choice of weapon is suboptimal, but I feel like it fits a thug well, a short heavy blade that hits hard. Also depending on hoelw a GM interpret a "One handed piercing weapon" if can be two handed for extra damage when precision damage won't work. May also offer an opportunity to use an oversized weapon and forgo precise strike for damage dice is gm will let the "one handed piercing weapon" regain panache.
- I feel like this gives you two good ways to contribute by debuffing, and lock in sneak attack. Being able to sneak attack allows for you to auto study your target. Menacinge Swordplay offers another way to intimidate if nonlethal damage won't work
- There are several abilities competing for swift/immediate actions, but the overlap should be manageable. Nobel Fencer helps by replacing charmed life and also give the option of booting an intimidate if needed with social panache.
- The overall product yields a reasonably well rounded melee type with enough skills to contribute outside of combat. The swashbuckler flavor is maintained, though most of the levels end up being Slayer in the end.
- The overall progression is manageable. You don't have to wait until a certain level before being able to manage most if the concepts. You can dirty trick, intimidate, and swashbuler from level 1 you just get better/faster and the build continues.
So, what do you all think? What items would you suggest? Where could the build be tweaked? This is just a theory build, so I don't have a specific level of play in mind.
Solid.
I think you did an excellent job of weaving in the 5 important levels of Swashbuckler, and it does add a lot to your Slayer.
I like the Broken-back Seax, it's fun, and like the Morningstar, is doubling up on damages. Which is always appreciable.
Thanks Voodistmonk for the feedback. I was hoping to hear from a few more voices as well. What items (aside from the big 6) would you suggest?
Shifting Jerkin:
Price 5,965 gp Slot (armor)
DESCRIPTION
This +1 lamellar cuirass grants its wearer shapeshifting.
On command, the wearer of a shifting jerkin can change her appearance at will as per disguise self. If the wearer has a talents class feature (investigator talents, ninja tricks, rogue talents, or slayer talents), once per day she can spend 1 hour to swap out one talent for another for which she qualifies. She can’t swap a talent that is a prerequisites for other talents or feats she has.
Slayer's Robes:
Price 15,000 gp Slot (body)
DESCRIPTION
This ragged, brown robe could be mistaken for a monk’s cassock, but the devotees who wear it are dedicated only to the art of killing. This robe grants the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Stealth checks and Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a weapon, and a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. If worn by a slayer, the resistance bonus on saving throws increases to match the slayer’s studied target bonus when he is facing a studied target. On command, the robe’s wearer is able to turn into a brown mist (as the gaseous form spell) for up to 5 minutes per day. This duration doesn’t need to be continuous, but must be used in 1-minute increments. While the wearer is in this form, the bonus on Stealth checks increases to +10. The wearer can end this effect as a standard action.
Burglar's Buckler:
Price 4,655 gp
Description
This unassuming +1 buckler has an array of small tools and implements embedded into the backside of its rim, able to be folded and snapped out for use at a moment’s notice to attack, defend, or accomplish roguish tasks. A burglar’s buckler grants the wielder a +2 competence bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks, combat maneuver checks made to perform dirty tricks, and to CMD against dirty tricks. Once per day on command, the wielder may transform a burglar’s buckler into any mundane tool weighing 1 to 5 pounds, such as a crowbar, hammer, saw, small shovel, grappling hook, artisan’s tools, or thieves’ tools. The burglar’s buckler retains its normal hardness and hit points in this form and can be converted back into shield form on command.
Swashbuckler's Flair:
Price 2,500 gp Slot (none)
Description
Blue Scarf: The user can spend 1 panache point as a swift action to increase her melee reach with light or one-handed piercing weapons by 5 feet for 1 minute.
Huh... I didn't even realize that might be a thing... Maybe I should have had a different thread title. Oh well. If you guys have thoughts on the build feel free 5ochime in.
Voodistmonk, excellent items. The blue flair I knew about and usually plan on for a Swashbuckler and I'd heard about the shifting jerkin, though I'd forgotten. The other two are completely new for me and super on point for the flavor and mechanics bother. Thank you!
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So I wanted to get people's thoughts on this build and some advice on other possible options. The idea behind the build is trying to make something that breakers the mold a bit. So without further adieu may I present, the thugbuckler.
Race:
Human
Military Tradition (Broken Back Seax, bolas)
Heart of the FeyTraits:
Artist of Battle in All Forms (Dirty Trick)
Mock Gladiator
AvariceStarting stats:
16, 12, 12, 12 ,12,15 (Middle aged age category)Levels and Feats:
SW: Swashbuckler (Corsair, Noble Fencer)
SY: Slayer (Vanilla)
Quick initial impressions:
* Being a middle-aged guy with 12s in most of your stats and a Str under 18, you're not particularly thuggy. (Not that this couldn't be a lot of fun to RP as a boozing, over-the-hill, once-upon-a-time-I-was-a-weekend-warrior type of overconfident trash-talker. Kind of like the Kurt Russell character in "Big Trouble in Little China".)
* Your will save will be atrocious as a low-wisdom human multiclass martial without fast-will track from either class. A few extra points from Aristocratic Discipline won't cut it. (If you're giving up the human's free feet for an exotic prof, then consider a half-elf taking Ancestral Heritage for the Seax.)
* As a pure martial melee multiclass who doesn't appear to need to concentrate much, a bit of rage wouldn't hurt, either for power or will saves.
* Your armor-class is garbage with 12 dex, unless you intend to wear plate. (You can do that as a swashbuckler, at the cost of mobility and some deeds not working.)
I know the choice of weapon is suboptimal, but...
* Broken Back Seax? Uhh... What da heck? A d10 *light* weapon with a decent threat-range? Where has this thing been all my life? Ah: a 2018 book. Well, then; waveblades have strong competition for the best up-close wetwork weapon in the game. ...as a light weapon, you could totally minmax your dex
Build (lotsa dex)
Race: anything with some mental protection
Levels: 1-7 = whatever, because it doesn't matter, since...
Upon leveling to 8th, the second-act of the film depicts our protagonist at the low-point of his "Hero's journey" saga, when all hope is lost. Until he meets the Wise Elder, who takes his bleeding body back to his Awesome Lair Slash Batcave, where he is healed with mystic Class A herbs, and there begins a cool 80's training-montage sequence in which the character transforms and upgrades into the kick-ass who will take the fight back to the bad guys in the final reel.
(Retraining rules used to rebuild into....)
01 Barbarian1 [fat load of hitpoints], Extra Rage, Ancestral Heritage(prof:BBS)
02-07 Sohei monk1-6 [Weapon Training, Light Blades group]
08 (Swash, or any class) (alignment shift away from lawful so rage kicks in again)
....you now have a guy who's making up to five 4+1 flurry/ki attacks per round with a single light +1/Agile/Furious d10 weapon while wearing light armor, and Gloves of Dueling / Piranha Striking the crap out of things. And has much better saves.
(Errata: The BBS is in the light-blades group, but it's not "light". So, Effortless Lace when need be.)
'If your Strength score is less than 15, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls with a broken-back seax, as you’re unable to put enough force into the blows to land them effectively.'
This is not an ideal weapon to use with weapon finesse & dex-to-damage, Slim Jim.
I mean, the OP has a 16 Str, 12 Dex for a reason.
'If your Strength score is less than 15, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls with a broken-back seax, as you’re unable to put enough force into the blows to land them effectively.' This is not an ideal weapon to use with weapon finesse & dex-to-damage, Slim Jim.
It would rather depend upon how "expensive", in terms of point-buy and other factors, getting strength to 15 is as a secondary attribute with dexterity being primary. Certainly Sav-Techs wouldn't have any trouble, while halflings are not amused. Dual Talent humans needn't devote more than 3pts out of their point-buy.
In retrospect, though, my initially favorable impression fades, and I see the BBS as an odd-duck struggling to find a niche. --Unless you specifically need the light-blades group (or BBS proficiency is granted for free), why use a BBS over a bastardsword, or the finessable ECB with a higher threat-range? (The BBS, and the equally odd Split-blade Sword, a 2d6 one-hander with 20/x2 crit and a BBS-similar Dex 15 requirement, are both out of the same book.)
If one's build is strength-based (let alone two-handed), there does not appear to be any reason to use the BBS at all, aside from as-a-lark. There's no mechanical benefit to doing so.
while for some reason it is in the light blades group it is a one handed weapon, not a light one. so no dex to hit unless swashbuckler levels eetc. weapon finesse won't work for it normally.
Ok, so to address some of the comments so far.
Dex based is superior to what I've laid out in a lot of ways. But being strength based is a major point of this build. If I was looking to do dex based a lot of things would be different.
BBS is a pretty good option if you are going strength based though. Basically it's a bastard sword with the ability to do piercing for free. I didn't realize it was in the light blades category, but I think that matters much.
Now to some of the weak points pointed out. Will saves. Will saves are weak on this build. Not terribly worse than on a lot of other straight martials, but there is a definite weakness there. One reason for going with human in addition to the exotic weapon proficiency is heart if the Fey for the bonus to saves. Also one reason to punch the Wis stat to 12. Aristocratic Discipline helps a bit. I might have to consider pushing the Swashbuckler to level 6 to pick up the will and fort save boost, plus the bump from aristocratic Discipline.
Armor class. This build doesn't have the best armor class out there. It's comparable to a strength based Slayer or ranger, but the need to push charisma up as opposed to being a dump stat means less points to buff dex and con both. From level 2 on I expect this build to be in a medium armor, but there isn't a spot in it as laid out now for heavy armor proficiency. I might need to consider picking that up as a feat. Either way he will get a Buckler so he does at least maintain a shield bonus. Some things about the build help with his defense in active ways debuffing with dirty tricks and intimidate and eventually a cruel weapon should help some in a similar way to debilitating strike for an unchained rogue. Also he will have the chance to parry some blows, though that can't ever be a complete defence.
Instead of dipping for rage maybe I should consider VMC barbarian? It would mean probably dropping either the dirty trick line or the intimidate line, but it would help with will saves and damage output.
I'd push shatter defenses earlier, but the entry is by ranger combat style and doing that earlier requires taking Slayer levels earlier which means less swashbuckling.
One interesting combo that I realised comes on line at level 6 is concealed sneak attacks. Eye of the storm and a blue flair allow for sneak attack provided your party cleric/druid/wizard or other will help out.