I'm playing a Fighter with Wizard Dedication, with skills focusing on Stealth, Thievery, Athletics and Arcana.
So I've been trying to figure out how much I can leverage the few cantrips I can switch out for on a daily basis. When going ahead of the group via stealth, I was thinking I might be able to leverage message (report back without risking moving) or ghost sound (classic Jedi mind trick distraction to make a sound over there).
However, I'm coming up against the problem that both of these have verbal components, which requires you to speak them in a "strong voice, so its hard to conceal that you're casting a spell".
Message has a range of 120, and you quietly whisper your message, but you're forced to speak in a loud voice to cast the spell in the first place. Which as far as I can tell, makes it useless for communicating in a stealthy way. As soon as you cast the spell, everyone at a distance likely to interact with you in encounter mode can hear you.
Even conceal spell doesn't help as you make a deception check instead of stealth check. Anyone can hear it, they just don't realize it is a spell. And Silent Spell never can apply to it since it only has a Verbal component. Might as well just speak loudly and use a straight deception check to send pre-arranged coded messages and not bother with the spell in the first place.
So how far away do people tend assume spellcasting can be heard? As far as I can tell, the CRB has no guidance on perception ranges, nor defines a strong voice.
Ghost Sound has a similar problem, with an even shorter range. If you want to make a fake sound, you first need to make a real sound. On the other hand, I suppose if you spend 2 class feats, you can at least remove the verbal component with Silent spell. I suppose it also can be sustained, which doesn't involve sound on the caster's part. So how far away would you require a character to be from enemies before spellcasting is not automatically heard?
Lastly, for Ghost Sound, do people interpret the "sounds emanate from a square you designate within range" as changeable or not when you sustain the spell? The spell is a bit different from most illusion spells since it doesn't have a target or area line, which makes me think you might be able to re-designate the source square. On the other hand, if you can't change the square, does that mean it persists in the same location even when you move beyond the range of the spell?
Has anyone put these spells to good use or seen useful applications in PF2?
This wasn't a problem in PF1 because the spell had a duration. Seems like maybe someone messed up and forgot to a duration on it.
Because you're right that you would have to do this in line of sight of the person you want to whisper to and would have to cast the spell in a "strong voice". If you're trying to be discrete this probably isn't going to help.
Maybe at 120 ft the person wont be able to hear you, but at 30 ft without an interposing barrier they'll likely notice.
Even if you managed to be unheard, there is this: "When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic". Conceal Spell is really needed if you want to use stealth and cast a spell.
Even conceal spell doesn't help as you make a deception check instead of stealth check.
No, it's in addition to. "if the spell has verbal components, you must also attempt a Deception check against the observers’ Perception DC."
I think it's fair to say with Message, that it's an exception, and that the Verbal component is in fact the message, otherwise the spell would be pointless.
In Ghost Sound's case, Verbal was probably added because it controls the Concentrate Trait for spells, with the unintended consequence being that it's a useless ruse if you insist on playing it by the letter.
Remember that people don't know what spell you are casting if they don't have the spell on their list/aren't casters. I imagine message is a pretty useful spell in courts at and in a Senate chamber, even if people can ID what spell you are casting, they don't know what was said.
Ghost sound has always been assumed to be able to be cast from stealth, even though that wasn't possible in PF1 either. Secret illusionist has always required feat investment and not just spell selection.
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There's a lot of factors that go into the original question of "how far away can people hear spellcasting". The biggest two factors I can think of are environmental noise and whether people are actively listening for a caster/enemies. Im sure if you really wanted to go the more detailed route weather would matter as well.
Asking a question of a GM along the lines of "is it reasonable for me to cast from here or a good spot nearby without being heard" isn't ridiculous. Especially as a lot of these situations we are relying on the GMs storytelling skills to visualize the scene.
I think many reasonable GMs would allow some kind of check rather than have your cover instantly blown in exploration mode. Also for most creatures if you are heard but not seen you'd still be hidden as opposed to observed.
As it is, Message does take a bit of creativity to use in encounter mode. Conveying changes of tactics mid battle. Relaying information about things you'd want allies/NPCs to know without clueing your opponents into your plans. A coordination role as opposed to a stealth role.
Ghost sound is a bit more interesting. When you are in a world where people can summon invisible stalkers and monsters can arise up out of the earth there are some applications beyond just stealth if you don't want to invest in Silent Spell feats.
This wasn't a problem in PF1 because the spell had a duration. Seems like maybe someone messed up and forgot to a duration on it.
Because you're right that you would have to do this in line of sight of the person you want to whisper to and would have to cast the spell in a "strong voice". If you're trying to be discrete this probably isn't going to help.
Maybe at 120 ft the person wont be able to hear you, but at 30 ft without an interposing barrier they'll likely notice.
In PF1, I did use message extensively as a Skald, and just basically kept it up all the time on the entire party. So yeah, a lack of a duration is a huge change.
Since PF2 seems to be lacking guidance, if I go back to PF1 perception checks, sounds of battle was DC -10, details of normal conversation was DC 0, which means hearing a conversation at all is likely between DC -10 and 0. Given there was a +1 per 10 foot penalty, a DC 10 check (which an average peasant character would get by taking 10), would put "automatic" hearing range at somewhere between 100 and 200 feet.
Certainly 30 feet is way too short for a maximum range of hearing a strong voice automatically I think. 100 to 200 feet sounds more right to me.
In real life, if someone is talking in a public speaking voice, intending to project, but not yelling, I can tell they're saying something from 100 feet away easily, even if I might not be able to make everything out.
Even conceal spell doesn't help as you make a deception check instead of stealth check.No, it's in addition to. "if the spell has verbal components, you must also attempt a Deception check against the observers’ Perception DC."
You are correct, it requires both. I was thinking the stealth was purely for the somatic component, and deception was the verbal, but that is clearly not right.
I was also working under the assumption that Conceal Spell was not sufficient to hide your presence, but merely hid that the action you took was Cast a Spell instead of simply speaking. Otherwise the deception roll seems odd to me. The fluff seems to point at it as well, but perhaps I should read the deception roll making it sound like the wind (or some other location dependent sounds like creaking earth underground)?
Is the Conceal spell sufficient to cast stealthily without giving away something is there (i.e. the caster) via sound?
Remember that people don't know what spell you are casting if they don't have the spell on their list/aren't casters. I imagine message is a pretty useful spell in courts at and in a Senate chamber, even if people can ID what spell you are casting, they don't know what was said.
While I appreciate the scenario presented, I feel like the number of games where I was controlling a character that was free to cast a spell in a court or similar official situation without being taken to task by the guards (or immediately filled with readied action arrows) has been few to none. In any situation where you'd be asked to not bring weapons (like a senate chamber), simply starting to cast a spell without permission tends to be an offense.
Unless its a very particular type of campaign, player characters tend not to be the ones in charge of those situations. And if they are in charge, they can resort to non-spell options do basically the same thing. I suppose high ranking NPCs can get away with doing stuff like that though.
Ghost sound has always been assumed to be able to be cast from stealth, even though that wasn't possible in PF1 either. Secret illusionist has always required feat investment and not just spell selection.
At the moment, I was looking at taking Conceal Spell, but figured that wasn't sufficient an investment to make it stealth capable. Hence the question on if you can change the target and nature of the spell after you cast it. Casting it and then sustaining it for up to 10 minutes might actually be useful. If its limited to the original position, then you have to cast it on the spot, and thus use cases are reduced severely without feat investment.
I suppose a wand of Ventriloquism (2nd) is a better investment than sinking two class feats into making ghost sound viable for my use case, given the earliest a Wizard dedication can take it is 8th, and the severely limited selection of spells to use it with.
Ventriloquism is a great spell in PF2. You can do most of the things you want with ghost sound with it.