I’m playing a character in a campaign who recently gained a torble as a familiar and it has come to my attention that unlike all other familiars the creature entry for the torble does not include a feat. Does the Torble Familiar still qualify to have a feat with it’s first HD?
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The same thing is true for all vermins, and most vermin familiars (see, Giant Isopod), since their base counterparts are mindless:
No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.
Some vermin familiars do indeed have a feat, such as the House Centipede, but it is tagged as B, i.e. a bonus feat not coming from normal feat progression. So, overall, it is normal that your vermin familiar does not have a feat.
However, a vermin familiar counts as a magical beast for all intends and purposes depending on type:
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.
and, most importantly, it loses the mindless trait:
The process of making a vermin into a familiar grants it an Intelligence score and removes the mindless trait. Vermin familiars communicate with their masters and other vermin of their kind (greensting scorpions with other scorpions, house centipedes with other centipedes, and scarlet spiders with other spiders) by way of a strange combination of behaviors, slight changes in coloration, and even the excretion of scents, subtle and otherwise. As with other types of familiars, other creatures cannot understand this communication without magical aid.
Since it was the mindless trait that caused the base creature not to have a feat in the first place, now that the trait is gone (together with the good things of being mindless, such as mind-effects immunity) the creature does indeed have a feat slot to fill.
How to fill it depends on your GM ruling. Using specific familiar feats (such as Spell Sponge) should not be a problem, since they exist specifically for familiars. Alternatively, since it has been effectively the caster who granted the vermin the gift of intelligence, it could be up to the caster to choose a feat for their own familiars, as long as they qualify using the base creature stats.
To summarise, I believe vermin familiars do get a feat slot, but there are no rules on how to fill it.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar.
Of course..... the "vermin" is not an "animal", so that rule wasn't really written with one in mind. It could really use a FAQ, but we aren't getting one of those, so....
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It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar.Of course..... the "vermin" is not an "animal", so that rule wasn't really written with one in mind. It could really use a FAQ, but we aren't getting one of those, so....
Of course the base creature does not have feats...but that's a direct consequence of the mindless trait. A vermin familiar would, as intended, inherit no feats from the base creature, but once it becomes a familiar, it specifically loses the mindless trait, and it would therefore qualify for one as part of its familiars abilities, the same way it would get higher intelligence after inheriting the base creature Int score.
I can't find a general rule about how to handle removing the mindless trait from a creature. But the really weird thing is that all of the mindless familiar options from Ultimate Magic had weapon finesse as a feat. So, it's very possible that the writers completely forgot that mindless keeps you from getting feats. And that's why the feat issue was never addressed. Sadly, this would also mean that there is currently no "intent" as to which way it is supposed to work, when the mindless familiar didn't already have a feat.
If the mindless familiar "gains" a feat, does it also gain a skill point for losing the mindless trait? Because the same rule from mindless keeps the creature from getting either and the same rule from familiars tells you to retain both skills and feats.
I'm making another post, because I just noticed how much of an outlier the Torble is. It's 3 years older than ultimate magic and is from an adventure book. Pathfinder was still trying to figure out how to do new things. For instance, the Torble also has its intelligence permanently stuck at 3 as a familiar, which is pretty unusual. So, I'm going to guess the Torble isn't intended to get a feat, since it never talked about losing its mindless trait in its introduction. And the rules about vermin familiars didn't exist when it was introduced.
Torbles that undergo the process of becoming a spellcaster’s familiar lose their telepathic sensitivity and hive mind abilities, but gain a permanent Intelligence score of 3. Torble familiars grant their masters a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
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If the mindless familiar "gains" a feat, does it also gain a skill point for losing the mindless trait? Because the same rule from mindless keeps the creature from getting either and the same rule from familiars tells you to retain both skills and feats.
Yes, they would, but considering that familiars get their masters' ranks anyway, this is hardly of any practical importance.
considering that familiars get their masters' ranks anyway, this is hardly of any practical importance.
I wouldn't say it's "important", but it does matter, because the familiar uses either its own ranks or its master's, whichever is higher.
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better.
Also, did you see my other post above about the history of the Torble? It predates the other rules sources and seems to be intended to not get a feat. I guess you could argue that the later rules sources retroactively changed the intent, but the original intent seems fairly clear. And those later rules sources were specifically addressing mindless creatures that had a feat anyway, like the greensting scorpion or the house centipede who have weapon finesse.
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considering that familiars get their masters' ranks anyway, this is hardly of any practical importance.I wouldn't say it's "important", but it does matter, because the familiar uses either its own ranks or its master's, whichever is higher.
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better.
I have never rolled a skill check with my familiar on a skill in which I did not have ranks and it, on the other hand, had. And I have had familiars in 80% of my characters.
Also, did you see my other post above about the history of the Torble? It predates the other rules sources and seems to be intended to not get a feat. I guess you could argue that the later rules sources retroactively changed the intent, but the original intent seems fairly clear. And those later rules sources were specifically addressing mindless creatures that had a feat anyway, like the greensting scorpion or the house centipede who have weapon finesse.
Yes I did, and the Giant Isopod (which I referenced in my original post), also does not have a bonus feat. Same thing for the Cockroach, the King Crab, the Giant Flea and surely a bunch of other vermin familiars I can't be bothered to list here. On the other hand, the House Centipede, the Green Scorpion etc do have a feat, but it is a bonus feat, so they are still lacking their 1HD feat. The only thing that links all of these creatures is the fact that they are mindless, which negates them the ability to get feats. But if they become familiars, they lose the mindless trait, meaning that they are not immune to mind-effects anymore, and similarly I don't see why they would not qualify for their 1HD feat.
Let's go to the Torble now. The Torble behaves literally in the same way when looking at its (lack of) 1HD feat, and I don't see why we should treat it differently: it's a vermin, it's mindless, and it does not have a feat. When becoming a familiar, it loses the mindless trait, following what said before. In addition, familiar Torbles also lose their telepathic sensitivity and hive mind abilities, gaining a permanent Intelligence score of 3. Unlike previous changes, these are permanent ("Torbles that undergo the process of becoming a spellcaster’s familiar", not just Torble familiars). The permanent Int 3 score should be treated the same way we treat the permanent Int 2 score of a Raven, it does not overrule general familiar rules about familiars increased Int. Unlike other vermin familiar, who revert back to being mindless and have Int - when released from their masters, a Torble will still lose its general familiar abilities, but will keep having Int 3, and no hive mind/telepatic sensitivity.
In other words, nowhere it is said that or implied that Torbles rules override general familiar rules, they are just additional properties the Torble gets upon becoming a familiar, similarly to the language a Raven would get as a supernatural ability. Honestly, I see no simpler way to interpret all of this.
Torbles that undergo the process of becoming a spellcaster’s familiar lose their telepathic sensitivity and hive mind abilities, but gain a permanent Intelligence score of 3. Torble familiars grant their masters a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
That's specific. The Torble becomes a familiar, so its intelligence is PERMANENTLY 3. Why even mention what their intelligence becomes, if it's immediately going to be overridden by the general familiar rules? Why say it's Permanent? The Torble is weird and that's ok. I really think you'd have to be disingenuous to read that in any other way than the familiar having 3 intelligence.
Are you seriously suggesting that the greensting scorpion and such should gain yet another feat when becoming a familiar? That's obviously not the intent or the Ultimate Magic text would have brought this up when introducing vermin familiars in the first place.
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Torbles that undergo the process of becoming a spellcaster’s familiar lose their telepathic sensitivity and hive mind abilities, but gain a permanent Intelligence score of 3. Torble familiars grant their masters a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.That's specific. The Torble becomes a familiar, so its intelligence is PERMANENTLY 3. Why even mention what their intelligence becomes, if it's immediately going to be overridden by the general familiar rules? Why say it's Permanent? The Torble is weird and that's ok. I really think you'd have to be disingenuous to read that in any other way than the familiar having 3 intelligence.
Yeah, it is specific: to the process of becoming a familiar. Once it has become one, it gets permanent Int 3, the same way a Raven has permanent Int 2, and a Torble who has never become a familiar has a permanent Int -. If the Torble familiar gets ever released by its master, it will keep its Int 3 rather than reverting to Int -, because it has already gone through the process of becoming a familiar.
Are you seriously suggesting that the greensting scorpion and such should gain yet another feat when becoming a familiar? That's obviously not the intent or the Ultimate Magic text would have brought this up when introducing vermin familiars in the first place.
Yes I am. I know I know, giving a feat to a bug can be so game breaking, you would expect Ultimate Magic to report an entire paragraph to warn us from its danger. More seriously, the "bonus" feat Greensting Scorpion, House Centipede etc get is a joke: familiars already use dex to hit:
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
The bonus Weapon Finesse is to give the base creature a minimum of verisimilitude: all those vermins are IRL predators, and they need to have a decent attack bonus to make any sense.
Btw, the rules do bring that up when introducing vermin familiars. Here:
The process of making a vermin into a familiar grants it an Intelligence score and removes the mindless trait.
Mindless = NO feat
NO Mindless = NO (NO feat) = featFamiliar = NO Mindless
=> Familiar = feat
It says to remove the mindless feat. But no where are you told to give them a feat or skill point to account for this. That's an assumption that you are making.
It shouldn't be that hard to find multiple official vermin familiars in APs and Modules, though. See if any of them have an extra feat or skill point. I'm sure they won't.
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It says to remove the mindless feat. But no where are you told to give them a feat or skill point to account for this. That's an assumption that you are making.
So it is essentially a nerf, as they only lose immunity to mind-effects, while making the familiar an illegal creature with 1HD, with an intelligence score, and yet no feats or skill ranks.
I prefer using an "assumption" to bridge the gap using logic, rather than simply accepting something that does not make any sense.
So regarding the “permanent Int score of 3”, my DM already ruled that one to just be a permanent change to the base creature, but still gets normal familiar Int progression for as long as it is a familiar.
I’m really just curious about the feat aspect... And while I do agree that the vermin familiar rules removal of the mindless trait would normally qualify a familiar to gain a feat, there is the small issue of the fact that the torble was introduced as a normal familiar option in 2009, and the vermin familiar rules were written later in 2011... so I’m not quite sure that the vermin familiar rules actually even apply to it...
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Rules are always retroactive unless stated otherwise. If your GM agrees on using that ruling on a generic vermin familiar, for example a giant Isopod, it should be applied on all vermin, including Torbles.
Corner cases and exceptions should always be avoided as much as possible unless they are explicitly stated, in favour of a more elegant system and smoother game experience.