If I attack while climbing, do I fall?

[Ravingdork]

If I make an attack with an unarmed attack, with a one-handed weapon with Combat Climber, or with a two-handed weapon, while climbing, do I fall?

Climb says you must have both hands free to climb. Does that mean I can't use them for anything but climbing? Or only that I must not have anything held in hand?

Can I stop mid-climb, draw out a two-handed weapon, and attack with it? Or would that cause me to fall? In other words, does the two hands requirement only apply while actively Climbing (that is, moving), or also when you're stationary, such as when clinging to a cliffside, rope, or something similar?

[Talonhawke]

It seems that you can't take the climb action without both hands free but nothing I am seeing about staying in place. Now the THW I could see as causing a fall. But combat climber allows climbing with one hand occupied anyway.

[Garretmander]

I'm not immediately seeing anything in the rules.

If you're not using the climb action is there any sort of 'hold on' action, or free action, or can you dance a jig on the side of a cliff as long as you don't move?

Flight has the stipulation that you must spend an action to fly or hover else you fall. Climb doesn't.

There's also the feat combat climber:

Combat Climber wrote:

Your techniques allow you to fght as you climb. You’re not

fat-footed while Climbing and can Climb with a hand occupied.
You must still use another hand and both legs to Climb.

Without seeing other rules, I think the 'safest' RAW action would be to let go, perform your action/activity, then grab an edge as a reaction to prevent falling.

[Aratorin]

I mean I guess technically the rules don't specifically cover what happens if your climb move ends while you are still scaling something, but I mean come on, do they really have to? If you need 2 hands to climb, you need 2 hands to hold on between climb actions, unless you come to an outcropping you can rest on, have climbing gear setup to support you at that height, or have some feat or ability that lets you climb without hands.

I think any GM would rule that if you pulled out a weapon, or did something else that made you lose the required number of free hands, you would fall.

[Talonhawke]

Aratorin wrote:

I mean I guess technically the rules don't specifically cover what happens if your climb move ends while you are still scaling something, but I mean come on, do they really have to? If you need 2 hands to climb, you need 2 hands to hold on between climb actions, unless you come to an outcropping you can rest on, have climbing gear setup to support you at that height, or have some feat or ability that lets you climb without hands.

I think any GM would rule that if you pulled out a weapon, or did something else that made you loose the required number of hands, you would fall.

So how long of a break can a hand be off the wall before I fall? I mean we know I can take a hand off to move just fine and with combat climber we would assume I can at least go handless (or with something in hand) for at least a moment or two when moving.

[Mathmuse]

The Climb action requires that the character has both hands free to use that action. No rule mentions a similar requirement while not using the Climb action. Thus, while not trying to move on an incline, the character can do whatever he or she wants with his hands. Standing and fighting on the side of a cliff nevertheless counts as not trying to move on an incline.

PF2 Core Rulebook, Playing the Game chapter, Terrain, page 476 wrote:

Inclines

An incline is an area so steep that you need to Climb using the Athletics skill in order to progress upward. You’re flat-footed when Climbing an incline.

I suspect that the Narrow Surfaces or Uneven Grounds rules apply while stationary on a cliffside.

PF2 Core Rulebook, Playing the Game chapter, Terrain, page 476 wrote:

Narrow Surfaces

A narrow surface is so precariously thin that you need to Balance (see Acrobatics on page 240) or risk falling. Even on a success, you are flat-footed on a narrow surface. Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on a narrow surface, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall.

Uneven Ground
Uneven ground is an area unsteady enough that you need to Balance (see Acrobatics on page 240) or risk falling prone and possibly injuring yourself, depending on the
specifics of the uneven ground. You are flat-footed on uneven ground. Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on uneven ground, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall prone.

Thus, if we view standing on an incline as standing on a narrow surface, then we still have no requirement to have one or two hands free. There is a high risk of falling, so the Grabbing an Edge reaction might be necessary, but that does not require a free hand either.

If on a vertical face without any footholds, then the GM could require handholds instead, such as one hand holding onto a rope. Something has to be holding up the character, such as a ledge or a rope. Lack of both a handhold and a foothold would result in falling.

[Claxon]

The way i interpret it is:

Without combat climber, you will fall.
With combat climber you can use a 1 handed weapon.

There is a possibility that you might be allowed to use a one-handed weapon (or perform any one handed activity) without combat climber if you're staying in place while holding on to a wall while technically not climbing because you're not moving....but I would say you would have to not move the whole round and would still probably require a check.

The rules are less clear than they could be.

But any 2 handed actions should definitely result in falling.

[Castilliano]

I think the surface you're climbing makes a difference.
Are we imagining a rope, a slope, a castle wall, or the tower of a glass palace?

As Mathmuse brought up, in some cases, one might switch to Balance to maintain one's position. In most though, there isn't such a ledge so one would fall, and fall immediately at that.
I don't think one would get to swing a sword normally, though if they leapt off the wall and had Quick Draw I'd let that fly...so to speak.

Or they might tie the rope around their leg so they could flip over and stab the person climbing in pursuit.

Which is to say, I don't think there should be a strict rule because circumstances & PC abilities can vary so much.

[FlorianF]

There used to be a stipulation on PF1:

"You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. "

Also Grab an Edge allows catching yourself *in mid-flight* with a single hand.

Finally, notice how the Climbing Kit still says nothing, implying you need two hands even if "attached to the wall", which seems a bit radical.

So I don't think the argument "of course you need 2 hands to hold on to the wall" is overwhelming. And even if you'd allow 1-hand maintain, Combat Climber would still make a big difference.

I'd be fine either way, but there's definitely a rule missing there(*), and this situation does crop up in-game.
As @Garretmander points out, the closest thing to a written rule is to ask the PC for a Grab an Edge check. But the action results don't fit well - you're not falling, so what damage would you take? And if you CS, can you mysteriously let go of *both* hands? That's isn't working well...

It'd need a simple sentence to say 1H or 2H, and be done with it. And while they're at it, specify exactly how you're meant to handle Climb speed and extreme climbs: "take 10+4"? "take 20+4"?

(*) In fact, an obtuse rule-laywer could argue that the PF2 rule mentions "climbing up", not "staying put", which is not an action, so that you are NOT F-F and can use BOTH hands while on a cliff side but stationnary!

[Ravingdork]

It always blows my mind when I see a thread that asks a question that I'm curious about, only to find out that I was the one who initially asked said question. XD

[Cordell Kintner]

Cliffscale Lizardfolk allows you to climb with your hands free, and Tailed Goblin reduces the number of hands needed to climb by one. I would rule that you need at least one hand on the wall at all times if you aren't using a Climbing Kit, which includes rope and pitons and the like.

Just try free climbing without holding onto the wall and tell me how it works out.

[The Raven Black]

Try efficiently fighting while free climbing for even more balance-lost fun.

And even more added fun if you shield block while doing so.

Not to mention Grapple.

[Ravingdork]

Sounds like an action movie.

[The Raven Black]

"It felt like a good idea at the time."

[Gisher]

Side issue: Does a climbing kit count toward your 2 bulk limit for wearing tools? Or do you only count things that are named 'tools' (healing tools, alchemical tools, thieves' tools, etc.)?

[Ezekieru]

Gisher wrote:

Side issue: Does a climbing kit count toward your 2 bulk limit for wearing tools? Or do you only count things that are named 'tools' (healing tools, alchemical tools, thieves' tools, etc.)?

Kits and Tools have the exact same wording regarding drawing them as part of their associated Actions when wearing them, and Kits also have their +1 variants available at Level 3, same as Tools. I feel pretty good about them sharing the same limit to being worn as Tools.